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5 right opens
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I asked this on Rally-America's forum but I thought there are alot more of you here on this forum... maybe you can help clarify something for me.

Not to seem redundant if this had been answered but I've been under the impression that the SCCA has and RA will, implement a 34 mm Restrictor Plate rule to PGT and Open class cars.

However, I was just perusing the 2004/05 Rule Book and it specifially calls the 34mm restrictor into play on OPEN CLASS ONLY.

So, my 2000cc 1988 Toyota Celica All Trac, in PGT Trim, would NOT be subject to this rule but has the PGT restrictor or 32mm (bummer).

However...

The age limit on PGT cars is 12 Years and my 1988 Celica All Trac is 17 years old as of Jan 1,2005.

Which, if I'm reading this correctly, means that I can ONLY run it in Open Class and therefore WOULD be subject to the 34mm restictor.

Here's another intersting twist...

In 3 years, my car will be eligible for the "Historic Class" and therefore applicable to the rules in place in 1988?

It'll take me a couple of years maybe to get through a G2/P Provisional system anyway and then I can run a virtually unrestricted PGT in Historic?

Why isn't everyone running in Historic? Think of the fun you could have in a early 80s Quatro Turbo or a Ford RS!!! LOL!

So I guess it's a mute point then... I can't run my 1988 Celica All Trac for the next 3 years in anything BUT Open Class and I can't run Open Class until I have at least 18 successful Coefficients under me anyway.

Why in the HELL did I buy this car? Or am I missing something?

Scott - stupid, stupid, stupid - Kovalik
 

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Dirt surfer
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RA looks to be instituting a steward system to help decide cases like yours. There would be teams of knowledgeable stewards in each region (East, SE, West, etc) that would examine exceptions to driver licensing issues and car-class questions on a case by case basis.

The way dch has expressed it, they're not trying to keep people from racing, they're trying to keep raw newbies from running 400 hp turbo monsters. You don't appear to fit this profile...

Dave G

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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I am not here anymore
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2,798 Posts
>Not to seem redundant if this had been answered but I've
>been under the impression that the SCCA has and RA will,
>implement a 34 mm Restrictor Plate rule to PGT and Open
>class cars.

As of when I handed the 2005 book off to RA, subject to more changes, I am sure, the restrictor rules were as follows:
PGT - 32mm
Open (adjusted displacement under 4001 cc) - 34mm
Open (adjusted displacement over 4000 cc) - 30.7mm
Group N - as homologated (32mm)
Historic - as per regulations in place when originally run

>However, I was just perusing the 2004/05 Rule Book and it
>specifially calls the 34mm restrictor into play on OPEN
>CLASS ONLY.

What is the 2004/2005 book? Up until two weeks ago, I have been putting the books together.

>The age limit on PGT cars is 12 Years and my 1988 Celica All Trac
>is 17 years old as of Jan 1, 2005.

No, the only age limits these days are on Group N cars. And back when there was an age limit on PGT cars, it was only in ProRally, not ClubRally.

>In 3 years, my car will be eligible for the "Historic Class"
>and therefore applicable to the rules in place in 1988?

The 2005 book puts a 25 year minimum age on Historic cars. BTW, it also removes the G2/G5 association with H.

>It'll take me a couple of years maybe to get through a G2/P
>Provisional system anyway and then I can run a virtually
>unrestricted PGT in Historic?

No, it would be subject to the rules in place when the car was originally run. What did the "production" rules look like in 1988? Remember that in H class, your competitors are the just of whether your car is legal!

>Why isn't everyone running in Historic? Think of the fun
>you could have in a early 80s Quatro Turbo or a Ford RS!!!
>LOL!

I can think of a couple of reasons - availability and price of spares is a biggie. I have been thinking about building a Historic TR7 (I was a TR7 guy before I was a Lotus guy). However, one of the things that scares me is the price of replacement fenders and stuff (more expensive than I plan on paying for the base car). Also, I have been having problems finding a solid hardtop shell (the only cars that were taken care of over the years were the convertibles).

alan
 

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5 right opens
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859 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
So put a HP limit on cars. PGTs CAN'T run 400 HP anyway.

Regardless...

A friend pointed out that the PGT "time restrictions" were lifted for PGT and according to him, I can run a PGT car that is more than 12 years old.

It seems that the 12 year restriction is only in play for Pro Cars, which I misunderstood as Performance Rally cars.

Club Cars are not subject to the 12 year rule. My car IS eligible for PGT as soon as I am.

With the 32mm Restrictor of course.

It was also pointed out to me that 2 years seems "extreme" for someone trying to earn their 18 Cos.

I respectfully apologize to anyone that thinks I'm intentionally spreading negativity.

However, I know others that and I myself, have other life issues such as 4 children under 6 years old, a business that I'm in the process of selling, 2 other businesses I'm in the process of starting, I'm the ORG Rally Cross Director and a nominee for the NORPAC Rally Cross Director, I am the Pro Rally Recovery/Sweep Steward and actively involved in the management of the Oregon Region SCCA Rally Division.

As much as I'd like to believe that I can get 18 Cos worked into a single year, ODDS ARE, I'll not get it done.

As I've said, I may be the ONLY one in Rally that can't afford the time or resources to run 18 Cos in a single year but none the less... That is a pretty good description of probability in my case.

Absolutely NOTHING was meant by that point. Please don't take it negatively.

Best,

Scott - fine, It's just me - Kovalik
 

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5 right opens
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859 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
>As of when I handed the 2005 book off to RA, subject to more
>changes, I am sure, the restrictor rules were as follows:
> PGT - 32mm
> Open (adjusted displacement under 4001 cc) - 34mm
> Open (adjusted displacement over 4000 cc) - 30.7mm
> Group N - as homologated (32mm)
> Historic - as per regulations in place when originally run

This I know... what I was trying to point out was that the new restirction differences between the two are only 2mm and that aside, IF there is the 12 year issue, than I have to run in Open anyway. But I can't yet and that's fine.

>What is the 2004/2005 book? Up until two weeks ago, I have
>been putting the books together.

Perhaps it's NOT the 04/05 book... I downloaded it off of www.scca.org just this morning, again, to ensure I had the latest and it made references in different places stating "as of Jan 1, 2005"

I guess I just assumed it's an incarnation of the 05 book. Is that incorrect?


>No, the only age limits these days are on Group N cars. And
>back when there was an age limit on PGT cars, it was only in
>ProRally, not ClubRally.

That is certainly good news.

I got my information from the Section entitled "Vehicle Classes and Eligibility"

Under which is mentions both Pro and Club Rally stistics.

Then further down, it does show the Pro Rally restrictions to years.

I guess I misunderstood in the sense that Performance Rally and Pro Rally tend to be used interchangebly, so I assumed that in this case, it applied to all. I can see now where it would be applied to Pro only.

That is why I asked for clarification. :)


>The 2005 book puts a 25 year minimum age on Historic cars.
>BTW, it also removes the G2/G5 association with H.

Gotcha... that's good to know.

>No, it would be subject to the rules in place when the car
>was originally run. What did the "production" rules look
>like in 1988? Remember that in H class, your competitors
>are the just of whether your car is legal!

This would be interesting to investigate further.

>I can think of a couple of reasons - availability and price
>of spares is a biggie. I have been thinking about building
>a Historic TR7 (I was a TR7 guy before I was a Lotus guy).
>However, one of the things that scares me is the price of
>replacement fenders and stuff (more expensive than I plan on
>paying for the base car). Also, I have been having problems
>finding a solid hardtop shell (the only cars that were taken
>care of over the years were the convertibles).

I'm having availability issues with my All Trac NOW, let alone another 10 years down the road. Spares ARE an issue. But just how fun would it be to enter an event with a classic Stratos or Delta?

THAT would be fun!

Thanks for your help, Alan.

Scott - Hmmm.... All you need to do is ask - Kovalik
 

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I am not here anymore
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2,798 Posts
>>What is the 2004/2005 book? Up until two weeks ago, I have
>>been putting the books together.
>
>Perhaps it's NOT the 04/05 book... I downloaded it off of
>www.scca.org just this morning, again, to ensure I had the
>latest and it made references in different places stating
>"as of Jan 1, 2005"
>
>I guess I just assumed it's an incarnation of the 05 book.
>Is that incorrect?

Look on the title page. It probably says "2004 (Rev B)" or something like that. That is the book that I created mid-season after it was discovered that there were some issues with the printed 2004 book.

All of the 2005 drafts that I have created have "DRAFT <date>" in a big gray letters in the background on each page.

>>No, it would be subject to the rules in place when the car
>>was originally run. What did the "production" rules look
>>like in 1988? Remember that in H class, your competitors
>>are the judges of whether your car is legal!

For some stupid reason, I wrote "just" here.

>I'm having availability issues with my All Trac NOW, let
>alone another 10 years down the road. Spares ARE an issue.
>But just how fun would it be to enter an event with a
>classic Stratos or Delta?
>
>THAT would be fun!

You don't want to get me going on the Stratos or the Delta.

Before I got my Elise, I was deciding between it and the Hawk replica Stratos (and a real Group 4 Stratos that was for sale in Santa Barbara that must have been a dog because it was CHEAP). The Hawk replica is close enough that owners of real Stratos cars get bodywork replacements from Hawk. I'd feel guilty rallying a real Stratos, but not a replica. However, none of the guys that I know of who have brought in replica kits have finished them, so this is still wait and see for me.

A couple Deltas have come up for sale in North America in the last year and I have been SO tempted, but I am not sure if I want to deal with two gray market cars (my Elise being the other one). In 10 years (more or less, depending on model), they will be 25 years old and you can import them no problem!

I have a ton of books and manuals on both cars. You'd think after owning a late 70s Alfa that I would be smart enough not to own another Italian car, but they are just so cool ...

As I said, you don't want to get me going on these cars.

>Thanks for your help, Alan.

No problem.

Just remember that the 2005 book is not final and I am not even involved with it anymore, so this stuff could change in the final version.

alan
 

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5 right opens
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859 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Even MORE news...

A good (and getting better ;) ) Friend of mine also pointed out my driving history to me, realizing that I had not taken the time to examine my own past... LOL... and reminded me that I have enough track experience to accomodate the provisional period anyway.

I guess I had forgotten (taken for granted?) that experience and was just looking at this whole process in terms of Cost to time and resources.

Perhaps, that's not the case.

Scott - here, have another hot helping of Crow - Kovalik
 

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straight at T
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2,472 Posts
>
>>As of when I handed the 2005 book off to RA, subject to more
>>changes, I am sure, the restrictor rules were as follows:
>> PGT - 32mm
>> Open (adjusted displacement under 4001 cc) - 34mm
>> Open (adjusted displacement over 4000 cc) - 30.7mm
>> Group N - as homologated (32mm)
>> Historic - as per regulations in place when originally run
>
>This I know... what I was trying to point out was that the
>new restirction differences between the two are only 2mm

Which is about a 13% difference in maximum airflow...

>and
>that aside, IF there is the 12 year issue, than I have to
>run in Open anyway. But I can't yet and that's fine.

The 12 year rule is indicated as applying to ProRally competition only in the rulebook (and was ignored anyway this year?).

>Perhaps it's NOT the 04/05 book... I downloaded it off of
>www.scca.org just this morning, again, to ensure I had the
>latest and it made references in different places stating
>"as of Jan 1, 2005"

It is the revised '04 book. The places where it says "as of Jan 1, 2005" are there to give advanced notice of upcoming changes.

Adrian
 

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5 right opens
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859 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
>I have a ton of books and manuals on both cars. You'd think
>after owning a late 70s Alfa that I would be smart enough
>not to own another Italian car, but they are just so cool
>...

I hear ya... My weakness in the past has been British... Lotus Esprit specifically. I love Driving them. I recently sold my Esprit Turbo and I miss it desperately. Loved driving it at the Porche Club events, or pace duty at various races, exhibition at Rose Cup, etc.

Emmerson Fittipaldi actually signed the dashboard of my Esprit. Fitting as a former F1 World Champ for Lotus/Players. That was a real treat meeing him and talking with him about the car.

Here's a quick pic for you to drool over... ;)





God I miss that car!!!

No, I'd never have Rallied it. LOL!

Scott - sniff - Kovalik
 

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I am not here anymore
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2,798 Posts
I have a 97 Elise. I used to have a 78 Esprit S2, a 69 Europa S2 and a 72 Europa Special. The only car that I ever regret selling is the Esprit.

I don't rally the Elise, but I have put serious thought into building an Elise rally car (from a new federal spec car). Plus, I live on a gravel road and slide my Elise around on the loose stuff all of the time (and I have the paint chips in the rear fenders to prove it!). When I couldn't get a real rally car for myself for the "ClubRally" entry in the local 4th of July parade, I put a visual ID package on the Elise and ran that. (Jamie should have a picture of it somewhere.)

alan
 

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>As I've said, I may be the ONLY one in Rally that can't
>afford the time or resources to run 18 Cos in a single year
>

Judging by the depth of the dust on the Honda, I can assure you, you are not the only one.

When was the last time you saw my name on an entry list? : )

Simon
 
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