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Discussion Starter #1
seems like there was no cars out there this year?
I guess scca was getting it all figured out. now
that it is, are we going to see enough cars to make
a class?
I am back at putting time in on my bmw 2002. it is
a 72 that I didn't know if it was made in Jan like
the old rules specified. now I am clear to go historic.
after thinking about putting a turbo in her and playing
g5 or g2. now, yes, I am all in on historic.

what else is out there. the mini and mgb that was
@ 100aw and bryfords 2002.

you need 3 to make a class?
http://www.onalimbracing.com/albums/2003100aw/DSCN3280_001.sized.jpg

thanks can't wait for my first rally:+

edit:
ford cortina and 912
http://www.rimoftheworldrally.com/Photos/Press-TimW/images/DSCN1957.jpg
http://www.rimoftheworldrally.com/Photos/Press-TimW/images/DSCN1962.jpg

more 72 beetle
http://www.commspeed.net/jameslz/brent/2003-10-04/378-01.JPG
 

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I'm not yet sure what I'm doing for 2004.

The Cortina has been great, but with the new rules is potentially not as competitive as in 2003, assuming more people show up.

On the other hand, the fun/glam quotient is pretty high, so that is a reason to keep on bringing it out. Very disappointed I had not time to prep the car for Mountain Trials or Mt Hood, and I had hoped to do Ramada but work has interrupted and I must be at work during that time. :(

Glenn
 

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bcd,

I plan to run a 1974 Colt in two or three Northwest Events. (Can't afford to travel.)

If there is interest, I would love to complete a second '74-'76 Colt and offer it as a rental to traveling H-Class competitor's. ( Now have two other chassis and enough parts for three more Colts, with access to more.)

It may take a while for H-Class to ramp-up. Most people I know had pretty much given up on it.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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Opel is a 4-letter word...
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RE: What else is out there

My friend has a '71 Opel Ascona that gets rallycrossed in the northeast. I've been trying to talk him into going historic rallying. The big concern is not being able to use modern engine technology, which we have plenty of, but not enough of the older 'correct' stuff for under the hood. I'd rather have a class with a little more leeway for mechanical mods and more of an emphasis on period-correct external appearances. I think it would be easier to get a lot of the existing older cars out in historic if the rules were a bit more lax in this department.

Bob
 

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2004 H-Class Rules are Liberalized!

Bob,

The 2004 Historic Rules are brand new. Things have changed a lot. There aren't even any age limits anymore. As long as you stay with a 2WD carbureted (or mechanical fuel injected) car that was originally manufactured that way, you now have a ton discretion about how to prepare the car. If something "could" have been done to the car in it's own era it is now allowable.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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Opel is a 4-letter word...
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RE: 2004 H-Class Rules are Liberalized!

Thanks for the update Rich. I'll speak to my friend about going that route then. I've always wanted to rally a 'Walter Rohrl' scheme Ascona A, and I have some excellent photos of the original car from a European car show after a full restoration. Sounds like a plan!

Thanks again,
Bob
 

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RE: Opel Stuff

Bob,

Great! :p

You might also contact John Vanlandingham's shop in Seattle. John has a lot of rally specific Opel experience that may be helpful. He knows how to build a strong rally engine.

John's e-mail: [email protected]

Good luck with the Ascona!

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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Opel is a 4-letter word...
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RE: Opel Stuff

>You might also contact John Vanlandingham's shop in Seattle.
>John has a lot of rally specific Opel experience that may be
>helpful. He knows how to build a strong rally engine.

Thanks! I met John V. back in '95 or so at the Maine Forest rally. I was driving my street Ascona and he ran up and flagged me down at a service area. We talked quite a while!

I have a lot of road-racing engine experience with the Opels, but not rally engine experience. I'm also fortunate to have a good friend in Sweden who is an tuner of Opel rally engines, so between us I hope I can come up with something decent...

Bob
 

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RE: Opel Stuff

Oi I remember now!!
Well, you know that a lot of the Opel stuff has finally started to come down in price so juicy things like "Stora diffen" (the big diff) and already ported heads etc and carbie set-ups are getting really attractive.

Remember that a lot of the Swedish tuner guys are very very good, and tend to be kinda expensive.
Their National GpH class rules have loosened up over the years and they no longer have to build things to the old Homologation forms for ever so I have heard that as of the mid 90s, some of the guys had finally figured out the SAAB 99-900 con-rod into the Opel motor thing like I built for Dave Clark way back in 1987!!!
Remember I was talking about forged FLAT top pistons??

And since you have an A chassi there are really simple spring diddles then all you need is decent dampers and thats not too hard.
2.2 rack, 22mm rear wheel cyliders and "diesel locket" for the "olje pump" are must have things,nd maybe the nice really made for rally JT Tuning headers, then its just a matter to "gassa som Fan!!"

You can call, at one point my little Saab V4 specialty shop had 4 or 5 mantas and Asconas full of my parts, and even now, Dave Clarks 2.0 Ascona B motor is in the stand for a revision and freshen, and the car is scheduled to get some beeeeeeeg stinkinn vented discs in front and something better in back.




John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
 

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Dan Cook is working on a replacement shell and cage for the 510 damaged at STPR 2003 where we ran in H-class. Work is well under way for a return in 2004. With all of the new rules, though, it's not clear what purpose H-class serves anymore. The new shell is pre-1972, so it would have qualified under the old H-class rules. But why run H-class, even if the car is 2WD and carb'ed? I don't have an answer for that question and it isn't rhetorical. I'd like to hear from others.

Bill Rhodes
 

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Pro, Club, or what's the Point?

Bill,

SCCA's Historic Class was originally allowable in ProRally. Then it was dropped to ClubRally only. There has been a conflict in the H-Class rules which, only one time, was interpereted to allow H-Class cars in an "All-Pro" rally. In other cases they ran as ClubRally entries. As you know the competitor's at the Pro event recieved points only in Group 2, because there is no ProRally H-Class. Here are the conflicting rules:

10.1.a (Table)
This defines Historic as being only a ClubRally activity.

10.1.e (text)
This seems to exempt H-Class cars from Pro-Rally age limits.

As of this week, there are no age limits for the 2004 Pro-Rally Season. However, the above 10.1.a rule still seems to indicate that H-Class is still only a ClubRally activity. The conflict still exists and there still is no ProRally Historic Class.

Personally, I think H-Class should be allowable in both Club and Pro. But to more pointedly resond to your question I think the whole point of a Historic Class is the class itself. Whatever the criteria may be, it was never intended to be a separator between Pro and Club.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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RE: Pro, Club, or what's the Point?

I don't understand why some folks are having such a difficult time with this business about H Class and Pro vs. Club...it's very, very simple, and has been right from the start.

- H Class per se is independent of Pro vs. Club.

- H Class competition (points-bagging) was restricted to ClubRally only. This is where vintage cars might actually stand a chance of being competitive (we were, Cook/Rhodes was, Byford was).

- H Class cars may enter ProRally events as an exception to the age limit rules, but would compete (points-bagging) only in the G2/G5 class appropriate to the car. The idea was to let them in for spectator interest.

But the 2004 H Class is hardly Historic, it is definitely not vintage, and so is it any wonder nobody's coming out to play?

My hearty congratulations to those who lobbied against age restrictions. I just want to know how this came about, when not a single one of the rallyists who actually had put time and money into building a vintage rally car supported a non-age restricted ruleset. The non-investing airbags seem to have won this round. So I'm waiting to see what cars they bring to the stages.....
 

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RE: Pro, Club, or what's the Point?

From the 2003 rulebook:
10.1 A....Class: Historic Series Eligiblity: Clubrally
http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/03rulebook/Article10.pdf

> - H Class cars may enter ProRally events as an exception to the age limit rules, but would compete (points-bagging) only in the G2/G5 class appropriate to the car. The idea was to let them in for spectator interest.

I don't see where the 2003 rules explicitly permitted this, even the last sentence of 10.1 E.

Certainly for 2004 with the age limit lifted it is obviously allowed, and conversely the 1982 RX-7 running in H class.

A much more sensible alternative would be to lift the age limit rule, but automatically class any car older than X (e.g. 25) years in H Class, eligible for both Pro and Club Rally.

What a freakin' mess.

Glenn
 

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I'm looking at a 1965 Cortina Mk1 1500GT in Sweden.

The car is prepped to FIA Appendix K regulations, and looks good. My only concern is that it's been a rally car for a LONG time, and I can't inspect it in person until January. But the price is right, in the low five digits, and it has a bag tank, Sparco seats, TRW harnesses, dual 45 Webers, etc. and it's a 1965 1500GT, just like my grandpa had!

Eventual purchase depends on what kind of co-driving gig I can get.

If I do buy it, I'm most likely to run SoPac, and some NorPac events.

Cheers,
- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 
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RE: Pro, Club, or what's the Point?

222, H, 5, 2, US2, N, O, A "ptttttt."

I'm still not sure but I'm going to build something to share the garage with my G5 car.... It will more likely that not be oldish...I'll bring it out next year to whatever events I can and you can put me in whatever friggin class you want... how's that for an exasperated answer! ;)




http://www.treesandturtles.com/
;) }>
 

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Discussion Starter #18
RE: Pro, Club, or what's the Point?

>222, H, 5, 2, US2, N, O, A "ptttttt."
>
>I'm still not sure but I'm going to build something to share
>the garage with my G5 car.... It will more likely that not
>be oldish...I'll bring it out next year to whatever events I
>can and you can put me in whatever friggin class you want...
>how's that for an exasperated answer! ;)
>
>
>
>
>http://www.treesandturtles.com/
>;) }>

i am thinking this 222 would fit my 2L a lot better.
:)
 

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RE: Pro, Club, or what's the Point?

I think 10.1.E is pretty daggone clear about the fact that H Class cars are exempt from the ProRally age restrictions. The ONLY question I would have about that wording is the inclusion and meaning of "restored"....

So, since I need to build a new rally car and there are no ProRally age restrictions for H Class, I'm now thinking the hot ticket for H Class is going to be go get a new Focus and fit it with Ford's own RS8 kit (Cammer V8, carb'ed from the manufacturer, with rear-wheel-drive conversion. Meets the new H Class rools and everything.... and since it would be a brand new car, I wouldn't have to worry at all about the meaning of "restored."

Heck, I might even be faster than Hurst in such a beast.
 

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RE: Pro, Club, or what's the Point?

Glenn,

The only remaining mess is that a "ProRally" Historic Class is missing. Historic is still a "ClubRally Only" designation even though H-Class cars are allowed to enter Pro events just like everybody else. But you can't earn points in a "Pro" Historic Class, you'd get G2 or G5 points instead.

I used to think a 25 year designation was reasonable, but time is marching on. 2004 minus 25 years is 1979. A Mark 2 Escort won the RAC in 1979, and that rally also included Rotary RX7's and V8 powered TR7's. It would be a shame to rule out historic competition like that.

These considerations make the 2WD Carb'd rules seem all the more reasonable to me.

Paul,

Nobody needs a rulebook to recognize a Historic Car. Anybody trying to present a kit-carb'd Focus in H-Class and argue it's NADA eligibility and historic value is going to look pretty lame. Whereas, a 1986 Mustang prepared in the spirit of the Historic Rules will be a delight to (almost) everyone that see's it run in the USA.

Keep in mind that under 2004 rules, H-Cars of any model year are supposed to have been originally sold in 2WD carbureted form.

I don't know who wrote the 2004 Rules. I didn't know about them until after BOD approval. But I like them a lot. The only thing I would like better is a rolling 25 year rule that moves forward each year with no restrictions on induction or 4WD at all.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 
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