I think the correct choice(that required by all amateur & professional racing series) has not been included. All cars in both National and Club rallies must be clean, undamaged, and rust free. If we allow junk, we reflect badly upon the sport to sponsors, the sanctioning body, governmental bodies, & insurance companies, and the public. It is easy to do(in 20+ years, I never showed up at a rally with junk). A clean, presentable car also makes the job of the scrutineers easier.
I agree, just because a car is old, doesn't mean it has to be a rusty beater. As my first rally car I built a '70 Volvo 142S and the inspectors at Maine Forest '99 asked where I had managed to find a 30 year old car in such rust free condition. I told him I hadn't, but spent the past 3 months welding in a large amount of new metal. Unfortuneately I made a stupid mistake and totaled it during the event, but such is life.
Its also a saftey matter, a rusty car has a greater chance of breaking apart in a wreck. Another thing to consider is that since rally is more subject to public scrutiny than other motorsports, we don't want to look like we're driving any old thing on the public roads. We WANT them to give us roads remember? :7
I personally dont think "new" matters so much in a series. Especially in ClubRally where the idea is affoardable and fun rallying. The only reason that manufacturers want age limits in a professional series is that it makes them look bad went an outstanding driver takes an outdated car and beats their new machinery. My feeling is "To bad, build a better car. If you havn't improved your designs in 20 years you deserve to get beaten." I'm waiting for some world class driver to enter a Lancia Stratos in a ProRally. THAT would be intersting to see. }> It would be doublely funny when its giving the factory cars a run for thier money, because it would have to be entered as a ClubRally car because of the age limits! But like I said, it would have to have one of the old line masters at rear wheel drive behind the wheel.
But those are just my opinions. I'm partial to any car older than I am. (I'm 22 BTW) So no, junk shouldn't be allowed, but I defy anyone to give me a really good reason why an old car shouldn't be alllowed.
'71 Volvo 142E (daily driver/RallyCross)
'71 Volvo 145S G2/Historic car, when I find time and money, or failing that, someone elses money
'81 Ford, former ambulance service truck [email protected]
Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
p.s. As a tech inspector myself, we do apprecitate a clean well kept car.
I hope I didn't offend you with my comment in he other thread. I meant it only as a little harmless ribbing. That being said, yes, I think if you have the fenders in your garage, you should put them on. Joe is right, the condition of the vehicle is a reflection of the professionalism of the sport and of your team.
You could argue that you should be allowed to run what you want, but you should wnt to look professional. Don't get me wrong, I think you guys have made that old truck look as good as possible, and using the 50/50 rule (from 50 feet away at 50 mph) it looks as good as the rest. However, fans, sponsors (and potential sponsors), and forestry officials get up close and personal in our sport.
Also, ever wonder why you get more hassles than some other teams at tech? A vehicle that is rusty on the outside is always going to get more attention.
When we bought Gail's Citation, it had been sitting outside for over two years. There was rust showing at the bottom of both doors, on the roof, one fender and under the hood. I spent a lot of time patching it up and making it look good for the first event, and still go around and touch it up after every event, brush the dirt out of the inside, and use about a can of white Rustoleum on the INSIDE before each national event.
The "new" '82 car is a much nicer shell. Absolutely no rust. :7
I agree, there is little reason for a "junk" car to be competeing. I am involved with a Desert racing team and we race a 196? VW bug that has its share of rust damage and has been rolled several times (I think we where averaging 1 roll per event for a while there). But it is well prepared and does not look like junk. There is no visible rust on the car,and no bare metal. if you look closely, you can see some of the damaged areas, but from 10 feet back the car looks great. It doesent take that much money or effort to keep your car looking decent. Have a little pride in your car. I dont know very many teams, especially at the club level, that shouldn't be proud of the ammount of work they have put into their rally car.
>I hope I didn't offend you with my comment in he other
>thread. I meant it only as a little harmless ribbing.
No offense taken at all. Special Stage is all part of the fun of rallying and I'm having fun. I'm glad people are comfortable enough to state their feelings. I'm just trying to sample the opinions that are out there because I don't want to make other teams unhappy if they feel our ugliness is hurting their sport. I want to continue to play with the rally folks, but I don't have enough spare time and money to do this rally thing "right". I've spent my money on tires and entry fees instead of sheetmetal and paint. I've spent my time on keeping the mechanicals in good shape and improving durablilty, instead of body work. I think I've made good decisions, but I'm a form-follows-function guy (engineer/geek).
>being said, yes, I think if you have the fenders in your
>garage, you should put them on. Joe is right, the condition
>of the vehicle is a reflection of the professionalism of the
>sport and of your team.
We're an amature team, in an amature sport. If someone wants to pay me to do this, I'll imediately send the truck to Maaco and begin looking professional.
>You could argue that you should be allowed to run what you
>want, but you should wnt to look professional. Don't get me
>wrong, I think you guys have made that old truck look as
>good as possible, and using the 50/50 rule (from 50 feet
>away at 50 mph) it looks as good as the rest.
You're being too generous. It looks bad and I know it.
>sponsors (and potential sponsors), and forestry officials
>get up close and personal in our sport.
I guess I don't see the benefits site of a club team looking professional. How does it contribute to happier forestry officals? How does it contribute to happier fans?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to look professional, but if I have to choose between competitive stage times and looking pretty, I'll take the stage times. Also, if I have to choose between rallying in junk or not rallying at all, I'll choose rallying in junk every time!
>Also, ever wonder why you get more hassles than some other
>teams at tech? A vehicle that is rusty on the outside is
>always going to get more attention.
A fact of life I guess.
>When we bought Gail's Citation, it had been sitting outside
>for over two years. There was rust showing at the bottom of
>both doors, on the roof, one fender and under the hood. I
>spent a lot of time patching it up and making it look good
>for the first event, and still go around and touck it up
>after every event, brush the dirt out of the inside, and use
>about a car of white Rustoleum on the INSIDE before each
>The "new" '82 car is a much nicer shell. Absolutely no rust.
Your new Orange car is NICE.
>>sponsors (and potential sponsors), and forestry officials
>>get up close and personal in our sport.
>I guess I don't see the benefits site of a club team looking
>professional. How does it contribute to happier forestry
>officals? How does it contribute to happier fans?
When trying to get - and keep - road permissions and community cooperation for rallies Club or Pro, we try to present as professional an image as possible...everything is done on letterhead...all the paperwork looks good...you get the idea. After that buildup, if we show up with a bunch of junky-looking cars, there's some suspicion that we're just a bunch of yahoos with a laser printer...not to mention that for the locals we're hard to distinguish from the kid down the street with the loud junker.
That said, I don't think that any ClubRally I've seen has been - overall - so disreptable to cause a problem...but if you ask me if trying your best to be presentable is a good thing, I'll say yes. Even if you only use Jerry's 50-50 rule, it helps. Spray paint is cheap...
While I am a supporter of the ugly but safe concept, I do feel that it should be strongly suggested that cars look good and very well maintained.
I think there is another advantage to having a professional looking car, it makes you feel like more of a professional and possibly act like one. Perhaps it is just my insecurity but at my first rally we barely got the silly thing on it's wheels so the paint was old, pealing and really damn ugly. We put a couple hundred into paint and a few weekends in the back yard and the car looked really good, but we also felt more respectable and like one of the competitors. Naturally we rolled the thing two months later and the car then spent a whold year looking like crap and I felt like some red-headed stepchild.
I am now very proud of how our car looks (although it is always third to safety and performance) and we do put effort in making it look presentable. This year it even paid off by getting invited to the LA Auto Show.
It takes less time than you would think and can take only a few dollars to make a car look pretty good. 8 hours with some bondo and sandpaper, $40 in cheap automotive paint and a rented spray rig, 2 yards of vinyl and suddenly you are a respectable 30/30.
Bradney A. Boli
Over Exposure Racing
Honda Accord #311
>I think the correct choice(that required by all amateur &
>professional racing series) has not been included. All cars
>in both National and Club rallies must be clean, undamaged,
>and rust free. If we allow junk, we reflect badly upon the
>sport to sponsors, the sanctioning body, governmental
>bodies, & insurance companies, and the public. It is easy to
>do(in 20+ years, I never showed up at a rally with junk). A
>clean, presentable car also makes the job of the scrutineers
I know plenty of tech inspectors that use the appearance of the car to determine how hard they look at the car. If you didn't have enough time to clean up your car and make it spotless, then you probably didn't take the time to check other "more important" things. The tech inspectors take their job seriously and bringing in a spotless clean car with no dirt under the hood whatsoever is the fastest way to get through tech I know of.
Plus, I've had a running joke with Joe Waterhouse (tech inspector in the NW) about having a clean car. He resorted to a white glove and still was able to find some dust... But he knows I take my safety serious by the condition my car is in.
<p>I knew it was going to get ugly...</p>
<p>I voted early on and my vote never showed up (just guess what choice it was).</p>
<p>Now I just tried to make it count and the board showed that I'd already voted!</p>
<p>Oh well, Since I retired the "golfball" and got the new shell introduced at CT, I feel better about myself but unless a sponsor that needs to look "racy" writes a check, I'm leaving it mousy Maroon.</p>
<p>I was going to paint it and ran out of time, but now I LIKE the look. If it was all painted up and shiney like the golfball used to look like, it'd have to be fast to fulfill the promise the paint made. The new shell has this, "waiting in the supermarket parking lot" look and if it even goes half-fasst, it'll be impressive to onlookers.</p>
<p>Sorry guys but I like the underdogs and I'm not alone. With the Pro cars in Parc Ferme', the only people interested in the backmarkers (which are everyone else) are the underdog lovers and I want to be the best at what I do.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/swift_rapids/peter%20watt%20photos/Zimmer4.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/swift_rapids/peter%20watt%20photos/Zimmer4.jpg</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/CT2002/CT02stohlman.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/CT2002/CT02stohlman.jpg</a></p>
Funny, my vote for the "I like ugly cars" got bounced, too. In fact, I've voted on three or four polls, and it seems that whenever I have an opinion that differs from what mainstream marketing types would say, my vote gets rejected. Coincidence, evil conspiracy, or coding glitch? }>
Well, I will admit, my car isn't naturally very good looking. Not because of rust or paint (I spent 3 months fabricating panels and welded then in to replace the rusted ones) but just because the car is not that great of a design. But I have tried my best to prep it to make it look professional. Decals, paint and graphic design on the car have improved its apperance. Suprisingly, it does not get negative attention (except from my friends and co-driver), so I guess its body design is not taking away from its nestalga(i can't spell). But back to the topic, I think that a car should prepped as best with time, money and resourses permiting, no matter what the manafacture made it look like. I would just like to say, get your car prepped from the inside out first(safety stuff and make sure the engine is reliable), then after it can pass tech, fix the finite stuff. Because if you don't, you might not be racing that weekend.
ps. check out our teams website to see pictures of "the dc roach" and tell me what you think!
<p>Looked at your super-looking site and noticed a couple things...</p>
<p>The "Video" link doesn't pop up with a label like the others.</p>
<p>Looks great tho, very cool flash stuff.</p>
Ha! That's funny. My housemate in college had the same vintage Celica, and we called his car the cockroach. It was especially fitting in his case. Not only becasue it was dark brown, but it was especially fiting after seeing it upside down in a snowbank with all 4 wheels pointing straight up in the sky...just like a dead cockroach.
The comment about the relationship between tech and appearance seems to hold true, especially for those of us with "old" cars. We happen to think that spectators, both on the stage and in parc expose, like to see a well-built, well-presented car. And I think everybody on our team tries harder when the car looks good. So we try to keep our old thing looking good. Having said that, whenever a wrench gets dropped on the paint, or a new ding is found, our standard response in the shop is, "oh well, it's a rally car!"
I think that the real people who want points and are hardcore competitors should be the only ones allowed in Pro Rally. Their cars should be new and nice every rally. The people who have the junks should and do it for fun should stay in Club.
Wow... My aren't you the elitist. If you are good enough and have a high enough seed what the F**K does it matter if you show up in a show quality car or a piece of sh*t? Or, if you only have pro-rallies close by you and don't want to spend $50k on a car that you only use a couple times a year? It shouldn't be segregated the way it is. SCCA is a club for the members... not the F'N manufacturers. Look at what happened to Trans Am a couple of years ago... the F'N manufacturers left and it almost destroyed the series. Now I have never run an event before... but it was always there that I could run one if I had a car that passed tech... I could run with the SO-CALLED BIG BOYS. But by what you are saying... that is gone. If the SCCA wants to have a series for the rich... fine... start another series on top of this one. Why should the members be shown the door just because their cars don't conform to someone's stupid idea of what the series should be. All these Illegal Hyundishiarus are nice to watch... but... they should not be the be all end all. It should be run what you brung... as long as it passes tech.
Philip J. Boer [email protected]
<p>Having had more experience teching a crashed car than most...</p>
<p>Yes, the initial reaction by the Tech guys is negative, both in the US and Canada, but since the car was initially prepped well and in excellent mechanical condition, I was never once worried that it would pass all but "neat and clean" requirement.</p>
<p>Final results? Never turned away, one business card left by Doug Robinson at Sno*Drift, no dnfs, a few overall wins, a few thank-yous from other competitors who were afraid that their car would be the rattiest attending.</p>
<p>I now have the new shell and I saved a bunch of money that went into it instead of effort fixing the old one that's retired now anyway.</p>