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Should the "check out" of Stage notes before a rally be done...
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forgot one.
not at all. no check out of any notes.
not at all. no check out of any notes.
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RE: forgot one.
>not at all. no check out of any notes.
When did it get decided that blind rally's were bad? If it were up to me, no notes and no maps. Really simple.
And multiple note checks with note sniffing dogs.
>not at all. no check out of any notes.
When did it get decided that blind rally's were bad? If it were up to me, no notes and no maps. Really simple.
And multiple note checks with note sniffing dogs.
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RE: forgot one.
I should clarify...
this is for a 2-3 mile section of road that would only be used to get competitors "used" to the format of the stage notes. You still wouldn't get to see the stages till the day of the rally.
The question is "do competitors need to be able to run the test section at speed..."
I don't think so, but I am curious what other competitors think.
john
I should clarify...
this is for a 2-3 mile section of road that would only be used to get competitors "used" to the format of the stage notes. You still wouldn't get to see the stages till the day of the rally.
The question is "do competitors need to be able to run the test section at speed..."
I don't think so, but I am curious what other competitors think.
john
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ok, then yes..
I think it would be a very helpfull thing to test a road, at speed, on a closed road, for a few miles to see what exactly a 3R>-4L<? means. It would be a very good learning tool for all involved.
I think it would be a very helpfull thing to test a road, at speed, on a closed road, for a few miles to see what exactly a 3R>-4L<? means. It would be a very good learning tool for all involved.
RE: ok, then yes..
>I think it would be a very helpfull thing to test a road, at
>speed, on a closed road, for a few miles to see what exactly
>a 3R>-4L<? means. It would be a very good learning tool for
>all involved.
The problem is, it means CLOSING, STAFFING and INSURING another piece of road a couple of days early. What would be GOOD to do and what the organizers are ABLE to do may be two different things.
Since the course notes only describe the shape of the course and not the speed at which it can be run, a test at reasonable speeds should link note to reality.
Bruce
>I think it would be a very helpfull thing to test a road, at
>speed, on a closed road, for a few miles to see what exactly
>a 3R>-4L<? means. It would be a very good learning tool for
>all involved.
The problem is, it means CLOSING, STAFFING and INSURING another piece of road a couple of days early. What would be GOOD to do and what the organizers are ABLE to do may be two different things.
Since the course notes only describe the shape of the course and not the speed at which it can be run, a test at reasonable speeds should link note to reality.
Bruce
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RE: ok, then yes..
Notes are bitchin !
I absolutely agree with having a practice session (the day before
the rally, on a "similar" road) on a closed section of
road with notes prepared "the same" as the notes supplied for
the actual course. Competitors should be allowed to run at
speed in rally cars . . . otherwise it is pretty dang hard
to get used to notes if you just run them "blind" :+
Like Bill said, try (at speed) to figure out what is a:
3R > / cr < 4R !! 20 use 1L / ][
Notes are bitchin !
I absolutely agree with having a practice session (the day before
the rally, on a "similar" road) on a closed section of
road with notes prepared "the same" as the notes supplied for
the actual course. Competitors should be allowed to run at
speed in rally cars . . . otherwise it is pretty dang hard
to get used to notes if you just run them "blind" :+
Like Bill said, try (at speed) to figure out what is a:
3R > / cr < 4R !! 20 use 1L / ][
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RE: ok, then yes..
I am thinking more along the lines of the press stage. Instead, it is now for everyone to use, and test the notes, as well as press. Never been out to a press stage, but it is already a closed section of road staffed and all...
I am thinking more along the lines of the press stage. Instead, it is now for everyone to use, and test the notes, as well as press. Never been out to a press stage, but it is already a closed section of road staffed and all...
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2,757 Posts
Agreeing with Trevor....
I almost fell on the floor: I actually agree 100% with ole Trevor on something! I am not in any great favor for stage notes because:
1) Adds cost which is of limited benefit to most teams
2) Adds complexity which makes it harder to jump in the car first time as a navvie and do a good job with someone new
3) It IS going to cause more accidents. I have had the recent experience of co-driving with some younger drivers this year, and what I have noticed more than anything is that they are expecting a navvie to tell them the exact layout of the roads from the tulip routebook or notes. These fellows grew up watching rallies on Speedvision and the in-car reading of WRC stage notes is what is expected. With stage notes, there is going to be more expectation of the route being perfectly known ahead by the drivers. Thsu more aggressiveness and speed. One accident at CT was blamed by the driver on the co-driver losing his place in the recce notes; I am gonna have to convince this fellow that the last inputs to the car at any corner come from the driver's seat! Look for more of this.
Mark Bowers
x-121 now Starion 887
I almost fell on the floor: I actually agree 100% with ole Trevor on something! I am not in any great favor for stage notes because:
1) Adds cost which is of limited benefit to most teams
2) Adds complexity which makes it harder to jump in the car first time as a navvie and do a good job with someone new
3) It IS going to cause more accidents. I have had the recent experience of co-driving with some younger drivers this year, and what I have noticed more than anything is that they are expecting a navvie to tell them the exact layout of the roads from the tulip routebook or notes. These fellows grew up watching rallies on Speedvision and the in-car reading of WRC stage notes is what is expected. With stage notes, there is going to be more expectation of the route being perfectly known ahead by the drivers. Thsu more aggressiveness and speed. One accident at CT was blamed by the driver on the co-driver losing his place in the recce notes; I am gonna have to convince this fellow that the last inputs to the car at any corner come from the driver's seat! Look for more of this.
Mark Bowers
x-121 now Starion 887
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289 Posts
RE: ok, then yes..
Any Practice Stage, Press Stage or notecheck road poses additional staffing problems, as Bruce said. So there will be additional costs associated with that. Costs for the organizers, such as road use fees, probably will raise entry fees.
As an example, the road damage/repair costs for the Practice Stage at Cherokee will be high because multiple passes on an increasingly-familiar road lead to extreme corner cutting and resulting 7-10" ruts in the apexes. Speaking as a farmer & ex-soil conservation engineer, I know--and the Forest Service knows---that left unrepaired, ruts of this depth and width will wash out those corners in time. (The damage in this one stage was greater than anything else I saw on the route while riding in the "00" car.)
Practice or check-out stages mean added costs for the competitors--extra day(s) in a motel, meals, etc. which raise an entrant's per event cost. There's even added costs for the volunteer workers. (Hell, I spend as much now going to work a rally as I used to running one years ago. But does that stop me? Of course not, I'm hopelessly hooked.)
As some of you have already said, it's really a money issue. You know the old racing saying, "Speed costs money; how fast can you afford to go?" Looks like it now applies to rallying much more than in the past.
George the "on-a-mobile-chicane-budget" Gravelgeezer
Any Practice Stage, Press Stage or notecheck road poses additional staffing problems, as Bruce said. So there will be additional costs associated with that. Costs for the organizers, such as road use fees, probably will raise entry fees.
As an example, the road damage/repair costs for the Practice Stage at Cherokee will be high because multiple passes on an increasingly-familiar road lead to extreme corner cutting and resulting 7-10" ruts in the apexes. Speaking as a farmer & ex-soil conservation engineer, I know--and the Forest Service knows---that left unrepaired, ruts of this depth and width will wash out those corners in time. (The damage in this one stage was greater than anything else I saw on the route while riding in the "00" car.)
Practice or check-out stages mean added costs for the competitors--extra day(s) in a motel, meals, etc. which raise an entrant's per event cost. There's even added costs for the volunteer workers. (Hell, I spend as much now going to work a rally as I used to running one years ago. But does that stop me? Of course not, I'm hopelessly hooked.)
As some of you have already said, it's really a money issue. You know the old racing saying, "Speed costs money; how fast can you afford to go?" Looks like it now applies to rallying much more than in the past.
George the "on-a-mobile-chicane-budget" Gravelgeezer
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768 Posts
RE: ok, then yes..
OK, running everyone down a practice stage several times will
tear the SH#[email protected]&T out of a road. I spectated the practice
stage at Cherokee, LOTS of corner cutting.
So why not just run a "notes practice stage" at legal speeds
in street cars just like was done for recce at Cherokee ???
(on gravel, conditions similar to the actual stages)
OK, running everyone down a practice stage several times will
tear the SH#[email protected]&T out of a road. I spectated the practice
stage at Cherokee, LOTS of corner cutting.
So why not just run a "notes practice stage" at legal speeds
in street cars just like was done for recce at Cherokee ???
(on gravel, conditions similar to the actual stages)
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289 Posts
RE: ok, then yes..
>So why not just run a "notes practice stage" at legal speeds
>in street cars just like was done for recce at Cherokee ???
>(on gravel, conditions similar to the actual stages)
That could work. Whatever people want or organizers offer is OK with me. ....just giving some info on projected costs of the options.
gb
>So why not just run a "notes practice stage" at legal speeds
>in street cars just like was done for recce at Cherokee ???
>(on gravel, conditions similar to the actual stages)
That could work. Whatever people want or organizers offer is OK with me. ....just giving some info on projected costs of the options.
gb
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