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Some one did the big get off at the Prescott rally in a open Audi, right? I think thay had NO gravel or racing time in that car or any car? Am I right? Should new drivers go open or PGT? All the posts on someone who wants there first car think thay can go AWD? Should that be OK? What do we think on this? thanks HAZTOYS To the gravel!!! PS on the AWD ,PGT ,OPEN car I mean (no seat time and a FAST car) if its AWD, G2 or stock or what ever.
 

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>Gcmgnbv, Rmnbcshc, AYC!
>Ln Ftrhg Xd, Ptrgcb!!!

Sorry, I hadn't yet removed the duct tape from my mouth this morning.

Anyone who listens to the sage advice of those who've gone before knows that it's probably wisest to start in G2 and learn to wring the most speed out that layout before moving on.

Should a novice actually be barred from AWD classes, though? I couldn't support that (just doesn't seem very fair).

:)
 

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It is not the car that over does things. I didn't have any trouble at all my first time out. Even brought home some hardware and didn't scratch the car.

It is usually the nut that holds the steering wheel that fails in those cases. A car will just idle if left running. It takes someone standing on the gas too much and the brake too little to really get things wrong.

Matt Manspeaker
Seattle, WA USA
89 323GTX - Open
 

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It really would depend on ones driving skills being-honest with themself. Most folks recommend starting with 2WD cars to build the skills-and adjust to the car being loose. It is not so much the drive configuration as the ability to realize one's limitations and to slightly push those limitations to advance their driving skill without over doing it.
Should a new driver go AWD-yes if they want. But it does not mean good results. If one finds it uncomfortable they might try RWD or FWD, you never know what might click. If it's possible to go out with someone that drives any configuration it would be a good idea, and see how they feel about that expierence. IMHO
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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My typical answer to such a question is NO, but that's an answer meant for someone who would like to reach their potential as a rally driver some day. I think if you investigate the early competition histories of the Rohrls, Kankkunens, Mikkolas, Vatanens, Makinens, McRaes, Gronholms and Buffums of the rally world you'll find that they all learned their skillset in lower-powered 2WD machines and then used those talents to great effect once they had advanced to AWD turbo cars. In my opinion if you start off with a mess of power, all-wheel traction or other mechanical crutches you risk developing handicaps that are nearly impossible to overcome in the future. But if you learn how to get everything available out of a normally-aspirated 2WD machine then your learning curve for reaching a similar plateau in AWD turbo machines will be much flatter.

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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Let people run what they want. I thought the biggest concern of all this was to keep it FUN. As long as the smile can be seen through the muddy windshield, lets race. It also makes all the prod and G2 guys smile. Makes you feel good to finish top 10 overall to all those people who think they need AWD and 300hp. As long as the sport grows, you will always have people learn in different ways. Some good, some bad.
 

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Adam et al.,

There is more involved here than "letting people have fun."
Keep in mind that we are one accident away from having
rallying band in this country. When some rich and/or
stupid driver in a high powered car (4WD or 2WD) hits and
kills a group of spectators, our sport will be lost forever.
I don't want that to happen to my favorate sport.

Yes, I would support mandatory restrictions on new drivers
with the option that new drivers could appeal to some
BOG and get a waver if he/she has extensive experience in
similar motorsports (such as SCORE). I also feel that co-
drivers moving to the driving seat should face similar
restrictions. Co-driving doesn't help one to learn how
to drive.

My $0.02,
Patrick
 

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You could get a spiffy new WRX and disconnect the rear driveline. Assuming you don't destroy the car in the first season, this will save you from having to build a whole new car after you get tired of G5. The technical aspects of this are a little goofy though and in the end it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It lowers the learning curve but does little for costs.

If you have the cash to start with a sorted out and reliable AWD car, you will have to spend more cash for drivers schools and events to get up to speed in a timely manner. If you have the money and are able to commit to full schedule (one or two events/schools per month) of rallying, great. If not, you may just embarass yourself and not have much fun.

Ben Bradley's [a href="http://www.specialstage.com/view.asp?StoryID=80"]interview with Tim O'Neil[/a] touches on the fact that when Tim started out, he had more fun wringing the most out of well-prepared slow car than just "goin' real fast!" I guess it comes down to how competitive you are. Do you just want to spray a lot of gravel and go 100mph down every straight, or do you want to go real fast compared to the people driving the same kinds of cars... and finish the event. Other rallyists will respect you more if you do the latter, especially the finishing part.

andy
 

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OK, the whole thing we are doing in North American gravel rallies in a sentace is: we are searching for grip.

Grip for accelleration
Grip for braking
Grip for turning in
Grip for cornering

Modern 4 wheel drive cars do all that for you, this is why people say one won't learn good habits.

This is also why the bulk of the modern 4wd cars are stupifyingly boring to watch, folks with no clue what they're doing have bought their way into instant top whatever.

but that is the American Way!!!
Buy the equipment, then pat yourself on the back on how well you did.

You know in moto-cross, it was alway the 500 or Open juniors or c drivers which were the slowest, the 125cc juniors which were the fastest, and which were the bigger threat when they moved up to 250s.

They learned their craft with real bikes, real trannies, real clutches, real brakes and real suspension.
Just less power, specifically less torque.


Patric Rodi's idea might have some merit, but as always, how would you set the require limit? And who would?
3 years?
2500 documented stage miles?
15 completed events?

Patric, you know these ****** yYanquis don't accept limits very easily, they always come back with "It's a free country, dammit, and I am fee to spend my money on any damm thing I want!"

I agree Patric, it scares me to see people want so badly to dive in the deep end, and we know what drives this, same thing that drives all the beginners who have been doing this for 2-3 years or less to clamour for Stage Notes:

They want to do what they've seen on TV.

But do what you want, I say do Gp5. 2wd and enough power stock to have fun and grow a bit. But not so much grip to get yourself into really really instant trouble.

You'll crash at lower speeds if your're silly.



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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The questions was AWD not class. There is high and low HP AWD relative to the grip that is available. Therefore AWD in it self does not mean the car is going to be fast, just all wheels driven-Justy AWD for example.
Having driven a Justy AWD there is the same level of learning curve in not loosing speed in the corners and the immediate cost of time for getting the car out of shape as with any car. However there is not the power to hide one's mistakes, so it is just as good for learning in, as other cars in this respect. IMHO
 

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So, maybe the restriction should be no turbo AWD's for inexperienced drivers??? That seems to be the bad combo.

We have to remember the sad death of the co-driver at Sawmill a couple of years back in a turbo AWD drive car, driven by a fellow in his first real rally. (He had done rally-x's.) The incident was plainly due to too much car and too little experince and judgement.

I don't want to see any restrictions based on principle, BUT we do have restrictions in a way: cages, belts, helmets, etc. SO, in the interest of safety, I am open to debate on this. It is a new world compared to the old rally world, where no one had AWD, and just about everyone started 2WD and low HP.

Mark Bowers

PS: John V: We LOVE the stickers; thanks!
Power to the Pro-le-Ralliat!
 

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Give me one good reason why people should not be required to start out in low powered 2wd cars. In Ireland, one has to start in a 1.3 litre motor and finish a certain number of events before they can step up. I think this is a great rule that makes sense for safety and will provide good competition among new competitors. It is really foolish for someone who has never rallied before to be able to go out and run a 300+ car!
 

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Offroad motorcycling has no class restrictions, but in roadracing you are not allowed, quite rightly, to jump right onto the biggest fastest bike you can buy. You are required to learn the skills to handle the bigger faster bikes and are only allowed to move up when the saftey stewards think you are ready. I am generally not for restrictions like that comming from offroad motorcycles, but it might be something worth looking into.
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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Should new cars hit trees?

This could get long but...
One thing everyone here hates is to compare what SCCA has learned in road racing and apply it to rally because it wasn't developed here first.
In road racing we know you can spot a crazy nut the first session of school and after the end of the day, if the instructor would not feel comfortable racing next to that student, the student will not pass the school. After he DOES pass, he needs to do it again at a second school. Then, he has to be observed for two races by the officials who can prolong this process as long as they want until he gets his regional-only ticket. After four successful race weekends, he may apply for a National license. At any time, this privilage can be pulled and/or negative points given and kept on a personal record. But in rally, you listen to how to set up triangles and display a red cross for a few minutes and then go play in the woods as fast as you want to go.
We in road racing also know that a big shiny trophy, a TV crew or a big check will turn normally good drivers into idiots - without much warning.
I've seen experienced rally guys flip at the first turn, land in ponds, run into parked cars off course, on course and after the course. Everyone has a story and it is sometimes their own. One thing about these stories is that it isn't always a 4WD car that did it.
There is no way to keep things from happening, fans in the top row at Indy getting hit by a wheel, marshals getting hit at F1 and CART, cars flipping over fans heads, it all happens and even in highly controlled settings with multiple safety factors in place. Picking on a type of car to ban is easy but won't solve anything.
by the way...
Sprongles hit a forest of trees in the second corner of the first stage this weekend at Tall Pines in their new 4WD car. Would anyone doubt Frank can handle a car? Should the car have gone to school?
rz
 

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Good point Morgan. However low displacement does not stop accidents or injuries. Also in this country how many small displacment cars are on the market?
Small displacement or lack of turbo does not reduce the factor of accidents, possibly the severity although I doubt that. Skill will reduce both and skill can be developed with any power.
Didn't Pat Richard start out in a 2.5RS? Certainly not the fast car to hit the woods in PGT, did he not also win the national title in the same car for PGT? So it wasn't a factor of the cars power that made Pat fast, it was Pat driving the car fast. We have to assume he was going faster then the turbo cars in the same class (he did win), so if there had been an accident, turbo and high HP would not figure into it. One can go fast without turbo and high HP.
I agree with most people starting with more production based/stock cars but there is no real reason why one should. It is more a matter of an individules ability to learn and use their head when behind the wheel.
We also have to consider that a rally driver is licensed to drive on the public road. He/she must have the basic skills to turn, stop, etc. and does so on a daily bases with other moving objects out of his/her control. Yet this same person can buy and drive what ever they can afford, why is this not restricted? After all you and I are the ones that may get hit when he/she looses control.
As always IMHO
 

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I started in AWD turbo. I never offed that car - I have been off twice in my Gp2 car that I got after I sold my Open class car so much for the idea turbos make people go off.

I have set some realy good stage times in Gp2 so I think it is possible to take what I learned in my Open Class AWD Turbo car and use that with good effect in my low powered 2wd Gp2 car. Some guy named Pat has taken what he learned in 4wd and done OK in 2wd cars.

A single law suit will not kill off rally in the US. Insurance companies exist to sell insurance even to high risk buyers. The cost may go up but I think we will be able to still hold events. Besides Canada makes a good back up plan.

Derek
 

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>One can go fast without turbo and high HP.

Only someone with talent, so limiting power for bigginers will let the people who have talent shine while providing valuable seat time. Yes, Pat had 4wd, but he only had 165hp, he proved he had talent. Of course it is not going to prevent all accidents from occuring but it may cut down on a few.

>It is more a matter of an individules ability to learn and use their head when behind the wheel.

Yes, but can you really trust people to use restraint when using an addicting drug?

>We also have to consider that a rally driver is licensed to drive on the public road. He/she must have the basic skills to turn, stop, etc. and does so on a daily bases with other moving objects out of his/her control. Yet this same person can buy and drive what ever they can afford, why is this not restricted?

It should be! Do you think it is right for a 16 year old who just got his/her drivers license to have a 300hp Mustang? Just because you have the basic skills to drive on the road, doesn't give you the basic skills to drive on loose surfaces.

>After all you and I are the ones that
may get hit when he/she looses control.

Precisely!
 

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>>One can go fast without turbo and high HP.
>
>Only someone with talent,

I disagree, one with talent will finish one without will crash.

so limiting power for bigginers
>will let the people who have talent shine while providing
>valuable seat time. Yes, Pat had 4wd, but he only had 165hp,
>he proved he had talent. Of course it is not going to
>prevent all accidents from occuring but it may cut down on a
>few.
>
>>It is more a matter of an individules ability to learn and use their head when behind the wheel.
>
>Yes, but can you really trust people to use restraint when
>using an addicting drug?

Sure, people do it every day when they drive. Well some do.
>
>>We also have to consider that a rally driver is licensed to drive on the public road. He/she must have the basic skills to turn, stop, etc. and does so on a daily bases with other moving objects out of his/her control. Yet this same person can buy and drive what ever they can afford, why is this not restricted?
>
>It should be! Do you think it is right for a 16 year old who
>just got his/her drivers license to have a 300hp Mustang?

You didn't? Geez you were deprived.

>Just because you have the basic skills to drive on the road,
>doesn't give you the basic skills to drive on loose
>surfaces.

Many people whom are 16yrs old all ready have 10yrs loose surface experience on dirt bikes, or ski's' or quad's,or?
I would say it is much more dangerous on the road daily (other traffic) then in a rally, but of course it all comes back to using one's head.
>
>>After all you and I are the ones that
>may get hit when he/she looses control.
>
>Precisely!

Good discussion!!! A bit off the question but fun!!
 

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RE: Should new cars hit trees?

.
Picking on a type of car to ban is
>easy but won't solve anything.
>by the way...
>Sprongles hit a forest of trees in the second corner of the
>first stage this weekend at Tall Pines in their new 4WD car.
>Would anyone doubt Frank can handle a car? Should the car
>have gone to school?
>rz
Well second corner of first stage in new car.......Are you suggesting maybe that the trees were at fault?







John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat











:p :p
 
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