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half price

what if you are a club team that is running only 1 of the two concurrent club rallies. should you have to buy stage notes for all 13 stages when you are only running 5? like running the friday nite clubrally at ofpr.
--greg
 

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RE: half price

Anyone who is not seed 8 can use notes according to the latest (perpetual) revision of the rulebook.

Why should club-only folks be excluded?

Matt Manspeaker
Seattle, WA USA
89 323GTX - Open
 

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RE: half price

>what if you are a club team that is running only 1 of the
>two concurrent club rallies. should you have to buy stage
>notes for all 13 stages when you are only running 5? like
>running the friday nite clubrally at ofpr.
>--greg

It costs the same to produce the notes regardless of whether or not you only use half. Do you get a discount on your dinner at a restaurant if you only eat half of it?

-Doug
 

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RE: half price

>I thought Club-only entries couldn't use course notes at
>all.

I thought that too at first Jon, because it's actually written somewhere in one of the forums by someone I assumed had the skinny. Turns out it's not the case though.

I don't think he's suggesting they be left out, Matt.

-Doug
 

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RE: half price

My mistake, that was just at Cherokee Trails last year.

I think the existence of this poll gives the best reason--to keep costs down for ClubRally competitors.

I wouldn't mind seeing a more detailed routebook at Club events. Something which indicates all the important turns without rising to the extreme detail (and expense) of course notes.
 

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RE: half price

>>what if you are a club team that is running only 1 of the
>>two concurrent club rallies. should you have to buy stage
>>notes for all 13 stages when you are only running 5? like
>>running the friday nite clubrally at ofpr.
>>--greg
>
>It costs the same to produce the notes regardless of whether
>or not you only use half. Do you get a discount on your
>dinner at a restaurant if you only eat half of it?
>
>-Doug


That may be true but most restuarants do have small and large portions that you can choose from. My guess would be that notes would cost less to produce if they were being produced for less stages?
 

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RE: half price

Because of the merged seed list, the only fair - and safe - way was to allow Club entrants in combined events to buy notes. The PRB has now decided that freestanding ClubRally events MAY provide notes, but for the sake of consistency (which is what notes are about, after all)they MUST use the same notes provider the ProRally series uses - presently P-Sport.

We've heard of a couple of events that are planning to do this.

Bruce
 

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Pro vs Club vs Stage Notes

I suspect this misunderstanding is due to what was published in FasTrack...

http://www.scca.org/news/fastrack/01-10.pdf

Specifically, stage notes were introduced in this FasTrack under the heading "Addition of 'Stage Notes' to ProRally events." No mention was made of ClubRally in this Competitor Bulletin.

And yes, FasTrack does distinguish between Pro and Club rally.
 

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RE: half price

>That may be true but most restuarants do have small and
>large portions that you can choose from. My guess would be
>that notes would cost less to produce if they were being
>produced for less stages?

This is how ClubRallies might be able to afford it, but when the whole ProRally course is done, producing three separate books of notes would actually cost a little more.

BW
 

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RE: half price

There are a lot of fixed costs associated with generating notes, though, regardless of the length. Things like transportation to/from the event, lodging, cost of printing, etc. I suspect that the somewhat shorter time required to produce stage notes for fewer stages only gives a small cost savings to producing them.

However, I think stage notes are going to come down in price once everyone falls into the routine. More people will be buying them (spreading out the cost), plus the event organizers will have a better feel for the actual cost of producing them (they're probably over-budgeting by a lot right now). It'll probably be eventually including in a ProRally entry fee (about $50-100 price hike), optional for a ClubRally entry into a ProRally, and optional for a ClubRally organizer to offer.

--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Visit my boring web page: http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland
"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." -- Isaiah 45:22
 

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RE: half price

>I wouldn't mind seeing a more detailed routebook at Club
>events. Something which indicates all the important turns
>without rising to the extreme detail (and expense) of course
>notes.

We call this rallying in the Pacific Northwest... it's almost a luxury, the copious amounts of information given to us competitors by the organizers in the route book! :) Of course, not every corner is in there, just the ones that might bend or break your car. So there's still the element of having to read the road and react to changing conditions.

Personally, I think notes are for wimps. C'mon, American rallying is about blind events: we don't get to see the roads ahead of time, we don't get to practice, and we shouldn't know what every single corner is going to be and how bad it will be. :)

Just my opinion... :) From the back of the pack! :)
 

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RE: half price

A slight correction:

The organizers have nothing to do with the notes beyond providing the course accurately. P-Sport produces the notes and SCCA copies them and sells them at a calculated break-even price. The price of notes may well come down if they are used more widely.

The biggest expenses for notes are indeed travel and spending four days on the stage roads (how do I get a job like that?)

Bruce
 

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BAN Stage Notes for ClubRally

I have repeatedly said:

No Stage Notes for ClubRally! No extra costs for ClubRally!
No Stage Notes for ClubRally! No extra costs for ClubRally!
No Stage Notes for ClubRally! No extra costs for ClubRally!
No Stage Notes for ClubRally! No extra costs for ClubRally!

AND if that means getting rid of Dual Entries......so be it!

The "Pro-le-Ralliat" in ClubRally should not subsidize Stage Notes for ProRally. The additional fiancial burden is BAD for ClubRally. If ProRally must have Stage Notes they should pay for it themselves!

Rich Smith
 

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RE: half price

>The PRB has now decided that freestanding ClubRally
>events MAY provide notes, but for the sake of consistency
>(which is what notes are about, after all)they MUST use the
>same notes provider the ProRally series uses - presently
>P-Sport.

Is there an official notice from PRB that club rallies (not associated with a concurrent pro-rally) MUST use P-sport? The rulebook in 1.7G, page 13 discusses the items must be included in stage notes, and requires approval of the notemaker by the RPB. It does not say P-sport is the only notemaker.

Since club rally events are more regional, the need to have nation-wide consistency is reduced. Requiring clubs to use P-sport is nothing more than granting P-sport a monopoly, and their prices need to be regulated to prevent monopoly pricing. Clubs should be allowed to develop stage notes via a volunteer effort, or use another supplier, to keep costs down. Requiring the use of P-sport makes absolutely no sense. Again, I am talking about a club only event, not a pro-rally.

An interesting quote from the rules, which the PRB has ignored, is rule 1.7.G.1, page 13, ?When Stage Notes are provided at an event they must be provided top all competitors.? The word ?provided? is much stronger than made available. In my view everyone gets a copy, like the tulip books. The word ?provided? is also used in reference to route (tulip books) at 7.2.A on page 60. The word ?provided? is much stronger than made available. In my view everyone gets a copy, like the tulip books. I asked about this at Rim, and Kurt replied, (paraphrasing) ?that was the idea last year, but then September 11th raised the cost of notes and so we could not to that.? (I am still not sure how Sept 11 impacted the cost of making stage notes. Notice every cost increase, like insurance, the reason given is Sept 11, even though insurance explicitly does NOT cover terrorist acts.)

If club entrants are allowed to use stage notes, then they need to be more affordable so everyone can purchase them. (Otherwise, prohibit club entrants from using stage notes in a combined pro and club events. However, this would force people to decided if they are pro or club.) Pro entrants are already charged more than club at combined events. Doing the same, and subsidizing club entrants for stage notes is a good idea.

Paul Nelson
 

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RE: BAN Stage Notes for ClubRally

I'm not a driver right now, but I will be in the future so please forgive me.

I don't think it is appropriate to ban stage notes. They are an optional cost, and judging by numbers compiled and posted by Ole on another thread, they don't make that much of a direct difference on stage times. That being the case, I suspect that there would be no unfair advantage to not running the notes in a clubrally environment. It's frequently been proven that the skill of the driver and co-driver makes a much more significant difference on stage times. Just ask Nate Tennis who is consistanly fast and doesn't even run using an ODO.

As far as I can tell the purpose of Clubrally existance is for enthusiasts to go out and have a good time playing in the woods, and I'm fairly sure that there's nobody out there making a living running club only. Furthermore, if running notes will allow a driver and co-driver to feel a little bit like the "big boys" that they admire and have even more fun in the dirt than why take that away from them.

I will get off my soapbox now... :)
 

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Stage Notes for ClubRally

I don't see how notes (necessarily) increase the cost for a Club Event.

Notes are optional, not mandatory. If you don't want to spend the money, don't. But don't remove *my* ability to vote with my checkbook.

If the argument is that notes 'could' make you faster, then likely so would a faster car. If faster is really the goal, which is the lesser expense?

Personally, I see notes as the way the sport is going and would like to become familiar with them as soon as possible. I would hope that as the use of notes among competitors (both 'levels') increases that we will have a proportional decrease in their cost. However, with only P-Sport currently doing the notes for the 'Pro' events, there is a bit of a monopoly there.

Having said that, it is still cheaper than doing your own recce if you have to take off work, get a hotel, etc.

I am all for lower costs, but (to me) more information about the course is at least as valuable as the cost of an additional tire for the weekend.

Matt Manspeaker
Seattle, WA USA
89 323GTX - Open
 
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