Here in California, we have the "Good Samaritan" law, which protects anyone giving first aid to anyone who requires it. Even if that person succumbs, you will not be held liable for their death, providing the aid you gave did not in any way contribute to their demise. I, for one, would not hesitate to administer whatever aid I could give to the injured party to make them as comfortable as possible until First Responders arrive.
The thought that First Aid certification is NOT a requirement to be licensed in the US has always surprised me. One of the things that makes me feel comfortable about Rally is that I *should* have two first aiders roughly a minute away and two more a minute after that and so on ...
After last weekend I think I would be unlikely to run any event where that is not the case. It is clear that the first aiders on scene prevented further injury, put out the car fire, and 'secured' the scene as they were supposed to ...
I SUSPECT that litigious environment of the States that the Lawyers (no slur intended) could have a field day with this ... which is remarkably sad.
I think this is a good discussion if nothing else ... I would like to hear the thoughts of the people who vote no ...
I think all rallyist shoud be certified, and I think it should be required for liscensing.
Why its not in US rally is debatable and I'm in no position to debate it.
All I know is that when I finally get into a car to drive me and my co-driver will go through EMT training, if not just for ourselves in the event of an incident but to be prepared. I'm sure I'll pay for this when I am older but if I am out on stage I want to be able to come to my fellow racers aid when it counts, and I want someone to come to my aid when it counts, liability be damned for now.
Since I was a baseball mom. I am still on the district board for Little League and all coaches/ managers must be first aid certified. Every year we have 3-4 first aid classes for them to get their certificate. It is a requirement before they can go to tournaments. If they are not certified then they do not get to coach or manage a tournament team.
What I am after is that I feel even though a rally small or big has a EMT at each stage... sometimes they can't get there until for quite a while due to the conditions of the road....how chewed up they are or maybe the vehicle might not start...it can happen. If both driver and co-driver can render assistance maybe to the other person that is injured...that may save their lives. The time period for someone to die and for you to save their lives could only be minutes. Their airway maybe blocked or the heart stopped for a moment due to a blow to the chest area. If you know how to rescuitate someone. You may have save their lives and on the other hand they may save your live if you are the injured party. This is my opinion.
This is a good discussion. Question:
How many competitors out there feel this should be pursued and made a requirement?
Or should it be left up to the driver and co-driver to ask one another that they require out of each other?
There are Red Cross medical classes out there in most cities that will get you certified. That is how we get our coaches/managers done and you find them to be free.
Yes...if you live in a remote area... it might be a problem to find one and that could be a problem. So I see pros and cons to the situation.
Bear in mind that Emergency First Aid (which is the level required for a CARS rally license) is a one-day course with a re-cert every two or three years (my current one is a three-year certificate). It is not a very challenging requirement to meet, and my last course was $65CDN ($40US).
This is actually an interesting topic, but since we lived through the same controversy in the mid-80(s) with Pro Rally licensing, there must be an answer somewhere in the SCCA archives (or in the memories of fellow members of the old fart club)why it was never instituted (or abandoned).
I suspect that this near-requirement receded into the background because of litigation/insurance issues.
Whether it is mandated or not, is something that the powers that be can argue about. I suggest it would be prudent for each rally team to take it upon themselves to make sure that at least one person in each car is at a minumum Basic First Aid and CPR certified.
The Red Cross in San Diego (and I suspect may other cities as well) offers a "Adult CPR/AED with Child and Infant CPR and First Aid" course which is only 9.25 hours (can be completed in a single day) and costs $58. You never know when this knowledge may really help someone - either when rallying or in everyday life.
The Red Cross here also offers a 52 hour "Emergency Response" course for First Responders which costs $175, but includes a text book, workbook and resuscitation pocket mask. I did this about a year ago and highly recommend it. Not all of it necessarily directly relevant to rallying, but very useful nonetheless.
Some points to bear in mind though :
- unless you have a particularly good memory and/or practise this stuff regularly, you may still be of little help if required to use this knowledge under pressure. To alleviate this, occasional review of the textbook and/or refresher courses/"challenge exams" are worthwhile
- unless you have the equipment e.g. backboard, c-spine collar, oxygen etc., you may be somewhat limited in what you can do. By the time the equipment arrives, there are far more qualified people there to help. You may be useful in assistance though.
As something in between, the Red Cross here also offers a 2 day "Wilderness First Aid Basics" course which can be done on a weekend and costs $82, and includes some more advanced info regarding when advanced help is delayed, and short distance transfer and evacuation techniques.
>Some points to bear in mind though :
>- unless you have a particularly good memory and/or practise
>this stuff regularly, you may still be of little help if
>required to use this knowledge under pressure. To alleviate
>this, occasional review of the textbook and/or refresher
>courses/"challenge exams" are worthwhile
I think we had to do a CPR class in PE every year while I was in high school.
More recently, we did a full days worth for mine safety training (about 2 years ago).
I don't recall many details of how many chest compressions to do between X many breaths, etc.
I tend to think I have a decent memory, so I definitely agree with this point.
>- unless you have the equipment e.g. backboard, c-spine
>collar, oxygen etc., you may be somewhat limited in what you
>can do. By the time the equipment arrives, there are far
>more qualified people there to help. You may be useful in
A friend of ours rung his bell pretty good while biking. I knew enough to keep him laying down, even though he was becoming agitated and disoriented while we waited for him to be hauled out of the woods.
Beyond that, there was nothing I could do.
>As something in between, the Red Cross here also offers a 2
>day "Wilderness First Aid Basics" course which can be done
>on a weekend and costs $82, and includes some more advanced
>info regarding when advanced help is delayed, and short
>distance transfer and evacuation techniques.
I can't say I really think this should be mandated anymore than other's felt that having a HAM in each car should be mandated.
It's obviously not a bad idea, but where does a person draw the line at reasonable?
Their is a sentiment that particpants in motorsports should be left to their own devices and that they are responsible for their own safety. We choose the speeds we drive, our cars, safety gear etc.
Requiring that our fellow competitors obtain medical training doesn't seem to fit in with that mindset.
It is something we should want to do, not be required to do.
Alternately, offer a short refresher on some major points along with the rookie schools. Anyone at an event could get a refresher at each and any rally they needed it.
If it's something a person wants to seriously consider-
What types of events and injuries would you hope someone is prepared to deal with?
If a group wanted to look at incident reports, it wouldn't be difficult to get an idea of what kind of first aid needs would be most typically required.
Even though I took the CPR/Basic first aid class as a requirement for my degree, it's made me more comfortable knowing that I could be of assistance if we do happen upon an incident on stage. As Denise said above, a few minutes could mean the difference between life and death.
>- unless you have a particularly good memory and/or practise
>this stuff regularly, you may still be of little help if
>required to use this knowledge under pressure. ...
This is true. However, if both crew members have had the training, there is a better chance that one of you will remember enough to be useful. Maybe when the next car arrives on scene, one of them will have had the course more recently, or be in better practise, or have a better memory. All of this is better than if none of the people on the scene have ever taken a course.
Well if we want to mandate this I personally feel that it is totally shocking that the SCCA does not require at least a physical each year for licensing. I think that the First Aid is a good idea but more importantly I think that even for Club Rally we should require a physical as well. Who knows maybe someone finds something they would not have found because of it and it saves their life.
>Well if we want to mandate this I personally feel that it is
>totally shocking that the SCCA does not require at least a
>physical each year for licensing. I think that the First Aid
>is a good idea but more importantly I think that even for
>Club Rally we should require a physical as well. Who knows
>maybe someone finds something they would not have found
>because of it and it saves their life.
1. I am required to have a physical each year to renew my license. High blood pressure.
2. If any one in the DFW area is interested, I will organize a first aid course through the Red Cross.
Or, if you'd mandated radios, the first car on scene could radio in, have the stage shut down, and dispatch an EMT right away.
The time comittment to get a Ham license is about the same as getting CPR certified. And it doesn't require re-certification.
I am completely aware it may appear that I'm throwing this out as a red herring, but it's a great example of yet another "requirement" that could be foisted upon teams to enhance safety.
I hate playing the devils advocate here because I do hope people are comfortable providing first aid and are taking care of their personal health, but I'm not sure what problem would be fixed by adding more requirements before a person is allowed to compete.
When a person mentions physicals, be aware that even the FAA doesn't require a yearly physical for all pilots. It varies with rating.
<< unless you have the equipment e.g. backboard, c-spine collar, oxygen etc., you may be somewhat limited in what you can do.>>
I was taught NEVER EVER move the injured person. You don't know what injuries they may have. Just keep them comfortable until professional assistance arrives. I would imagine the only time I would try to move an injured person if they were trapped in a car that was on fire.
> << unless you have the equipment e.g. backboard, c-spine
> collar, oxygen etc., you may be somewhat limited in what you
> can do.>>
>I was taught NEVER EVER move the injured person. You don't
>know what injuries they may have. Just keep them comfortable
>until professional assistance arrives. I would imagine the
>only time I would try to move an injured person if they were
>trapped in a car that was on fire.
Agreed. Unless you have both the professional training and equipment, one should not attempt to move anyone who has even the slightest possibility of back, neck or head injury. Though we were taught correct procedures for c-spine collars, backboards, stabilization etc., it was about a year ago and I do not have enough confidence in my skills that I would even try to attempt this. Besides one is unlikely to have the necessary equipment with you in the rally car.
When I quizzed my very experienced first aid instructor as to what to do should I come across a fellow rallyist who had been injured (assuming most likely scenario : still suited, helmeted and belted in rally car), he suggested leaving exactly as is i.e. no movement, helmet on, but treat for comfort, bleeding etc. while advanced medical help is summoned. Possible exceptions to the movement rule might be fire, or CPR necessary to sustain life.
Besides administering whatever patient care is reasonable, securing the scene and summoning advanced medical help as quickly as possible are the priorities.
I am very close to quiting rally because of all the extra stuff I need to do to keep in the sport, if this became a requirement I would be that much closer to selling the car and moving on to another passtime.
I have been aid certified several times in the past but to keep up with the recertifacation requirements is a time commintment I would not be happy to make.
Speaking of FAA medicals, it would sure be a help if the SCCA excepted my Pilots Medical Cert for the physical requirement.