[rally to cave]

A problem with the current SCCA seeding method is that within the same seed, A slow driver with an open class car gets placed above faster drivers with PGT, G2, G5, prod, cars. Frustrating for those behind them.

The Australian Rally Championship uses a system based on stage times called a Diver Performance Index (DPI). It is a ratio based on the driver's time devided by the the fastest stage time. A stage winner has a stage performance index (SPI) of 1; those afterward have a SPI <1. They average the top 2/3 of a driver's SPIs to calculate a DPI. They use the DPI for seeding.

http://www.rally.com.au/index.cfm?fuseaction=arccompetitors.seedings&cfid=819963&cftoken=64267759

While complex, this system seems to have some merit. A new driver, or a driver changing to a faster car, moves up qucikly. Conversely, if I go from a WRC car to a Geo Metro, I move down quickly.

Comments? Pros? Cons? Any Aussies out there care to comment? Might have some merit to pass onto the PRB.

Paul Nelson

 

[starion887]

Hi Paul,

The order of Open/PGT/G5/G2/P is fairly accurate as to how these cars tend to run, so it is not all that bad. A system like you mention has been kept for over a year now; it seems to have met with a mixed reception. The positives have been a reasonable attitude by the keeper (John McArthur) on how well it is modified based on unusual extenuating circumstances. The negative is that few of us seem know the actual formulas used; folks are uncomfortable about the unknown. I have not heard on how much this is currently being used set actual seeds; I am guessing that the rules book is the main guide for seeding, and think this system is being used to fine tune start orders to resolve unusual orders that crop up due to the seeding system. But, I could be all wet here!

Mark Bowers

 

[Subie Gal]

the seeding thing seems to work okay -
but could use some improvement...

take me for instance...
i'm now a seed 5.... in a P car...
and i will be placed right in front of the first
seed 6 open class car...

does this make sense to you?
so for the first stage or 2,
i have to watch my mirrors for this jet car
coming up behind me?

isnt there a way to avoid this type of thing?
that doesnt seem to safe to me...

and i hate driving in my mirrors...
jamie
www.subiegalracing.com
www.subiegal.com

 

[patr]

well, remember, everyone has had to go through it, e.g. everyone in seed 1 has had this problem, and this problem even exists between seed 1/0, and within seeds. a better thing to do is mandate a minimum of at least 2 re-seeds per Pro event.

 

[jandreini]

US & Canadian rallying already provide more reseeds per stage mile than WRC or European rallying. The best solution is to seed according to the rules(has worked well for 35 years) and ensure sufficient stage mileage before the reseed. I suggest 25-30 miles as a good number. It also helps if stage lengths before the reseed are kept fairly short to prevent overtaking.

There will forever be problems with speed differential in the lower seeds. This is because, with new drivers, the relative talents are unknown. Rally schools should stress yielding road position at stage starts to faster cars. It only takes 4 or 5 rallies for a naturally talented driver to rise through the ranks.

I have not seen any overtaking among the top two seeds in recent years; I believe that your perceived problem at the front does not exist. If there is a problem, then seeds should be redefined to make it harder to get into a top seed. This has been done before.

 

[Jon Bogert]

"Rally schools should stress yielding road position at stage starts to faster cars."

As should drivers' meetings. It's SO easy to yield or request a start order swap... unless the other guy is having an ego problem.

Passing doesn't have to be difficult--a pass will delay both cars <5 seconds if both cooperate. I cut a tire last year at STPR getting out of way of someone. I also take the time to tell the guy behind me that if I see him I will pull over and I tell him to pass only on the left.

The only time I don't pull over at the first opportunity is if I know the driver behind me is slower than I am, and it's just a wake-up call that I'm not pushing very hard.

 

[rally to cave]

jandreini wrote:

>The best solution
>is to seed according to the rules(has worked well for 35
>years) and ensure sufficient stage mileage before the
>reseed. I suggest 25-30 miles as a good number. It also
>helps if stage lengths before the reseed are kept fairly
>short to prevent overtaking.

I agree. However, at Rim, they had computer problems and did not do a re-send the first night! ARGH. Why not try and improve the start order, if its possible.

>I have not seen any overtaking among the top two seeds in
>recent years; I believe that your perceived problem at the
>front does not exist. If there is a problem, then seeds
>should be redefined to make it harder to get into a top
>seed. This has been done before.

I agree. This is not as much of a problem with the top seeds because the competition is close and they all are driving, generally, open class cars. The problem exits more in the seeds 2-7 range with a wider range of drivers and cars.

I noticed a club rally driver will have a very tough time moving past seed 5, unless they come in the top 3 positions. This is made even tougher when there were four seed 1/2 drivers entered in the club rally at RIM! (There were eight seed 1 drivers in pro.) However, a pro-rally driver can move past seed 5 by finishing in the top 50% of the pro field. Yet by the entries the club and pro field were very competitive! Its technically possibly for a slower pro driver to get a higher seed than a faster club driver. (I not saying it has happened, just that it is possible.)

Finishing position is determined by your speed AND the DNF of faster drivers ahead of you. The use of stage times is a measurement of a driver's speed againist the fastest on stage. It also might help place a driver in the appropriate place when they complete out of their local area.


Paul

 

[jandreini]

>I agree. However, at Rim, they had computer problems and
>did not do a re-send the first night! ARGH. Why not try
>and improve the start order, if its possible.
>

Agreed! Even circuit racing has a method of ordering cars if, for some reason, there is no qualifying. This is one instance where interference by the steward is justified.

>>I have not seen any overtaking among the top two seeds in
>>recent years; I believe that your perceived problem at the
>>front does not exist. If there is a problem, then seeds
>>should be redefined to make it harder to get into a top
>>seed. This has been done before.
>
>I agree. This is not as much of a problem with the top seeds
>because the competition is close and they all are driving,
>generally, open class cars. The problem exits more in the
>seeds 2-7 range with a wider range of drivers and cars.
>

Perhaps seeding requirements for seeds 2-4 should be reviewed. These are very difficult seeds to get right. In the old days(70's) it was basically too easy to achieve seed 2 & too hard to get to seed 3. This created a problems, and the seeding requirements were adjusted.

>I noticed a club rally driver will have a very tough time
>moving past seed 5, unless they come in the top 3 positions.
>This is made even tougher when there were four seed 1/2
>drivers entered in the club rally at RIM! (There were eight
>seed 1 drivers in pro.) However, a pro-rally driver can move
>past seed 5 by finishing in the top 50% of the pro field.
>Yet by the entries the club and pro field were very
>competitive! Its technically possibly for a slower pro
>driver to get a higher seed than a faster club driver. (I
>not saying it has happened, just that it is possible.)
>

I've long argued that Club Rally should be for drivers Seed 2 and below. An accomplished Club Rally driver can rise in this scenario. It is not possible to rise to the top seeds, however, if you don't go National.

>Finishing position is determined by your speed AND the DNF
>of faster drivers ahead of you. The use of stage times is a
>measurement of a driver's speed againist the fastest on
>stage. It also might help place a driver in the appropriate
>place when they complete out of their local area.
>

I believe each argument has its points. I tend to favor finishing record as the determining factor because I've seen too many fast drivers without the ability to finish become nothing more than course blockages. Reseeding during the rally and common courtesy on the course SHOULD remedy any temporary problems that arise.

Seeding is tough. It needs to reflect a competitor's record while keeping an eye on up-and-comers. It is an imperfect procedure that often relies upon courtesy and common sense at the bottom. However, I think that on balance it works. If you review the seeding horror stories of 2002, I think you will find meddling with the system is at the bottom of all of them.

 

[patr]

my point is that there is no 'required' reseed in ProRally, or at least if there is (rulebook aint handy), I've been to events where it doesn't happen until the 3rd leg, or it only happens once.

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about ('uh, there is no problem at the front'), I see cars caught/notpassed all the time. Just cuz you dont hear guys whining about it on specialstage doesn't mean it doesn't happen . I'm not saying it is a 'problem' either. I am saying 'it happens everywhere, at the front as well, and to the guys who made it to seed 1/0 as well, and they had (and still have to)deal with it'.

ALL MY POINT WAS is that at least 2 RESEEDS per event should be in the rules, and completed.

 

[daphne]

The rule book does mandate a reseed.

As for having multiples, while it might be a great idea in terms of road position/passing, it can be an administrative nightmare. In order for it to work, you need a time card collection point somewhere on the route. You then need all your competitors to check into your RGC or MTC in order to reseed them.

Reseeds are not trivial and I've seen events try to do one very poorly because they really didn't have enough time or resources. Unless the stages are long, the one minute interval between cars is sufficient for most.

Reseeds are a balancing act between getting competitors ordered properly and providing a well running and on time event. I have a lot of respect for organizers who pull this off without a hitch.

 

[patr]

well, every cdn event has mandatory 2 reseeds. I know hard it is I've done it myself (but not with 75 cars - hehe).