Special Stage Forums banner

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
600-Crest-Saran wrap
Joined
·
512 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why is it that SCCA has denied the fact that the world had a much more suprior way of running things. I just started in club rally in my old ass legacy. I want to convert the car to a turbo car but whats the point if there are so many resrictions on turboed open class cars. And then there is the cage issues, do you know that we have something like 5 more bars that need to be installed in a rally car than a european based rally car does. If Europe is the founding father of rally, then why wouldnt SCCA follow someone else's lead and see what they have done and accomplished. Dave Hintz is right, you can only be calm for so long until rallying (a sport that everyone should enjoy, not just the elite or the rich) becomes almost insane with the rules and regs. I swear sometimes I think that SCCA was founded by a bunch of circle track dwellers. Im not one to bitch because I have had a blast rallying and it wouldnt be possible if there werent organizers volenteering there time. Trust me I have done my time! My dream is that SCCA follows FIA and WRC rules and regs much closer since that is where most of the media and sponsers for events flock to. And then maybe we would have more works teams like Audi, VW, Subaru, Mitsu...etc. Or even at all. Way to go Dodge for hangin in there.

Gabe vonAhlefeld/Car #211
 

·
straight at T
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
>Why is it that SCCA has denied the fact that the world had a
>much more suprior way of running things. I just started in
>club rally in my old ass legacy. I want to convert the car
>to a turbo car but whats the point if there are so many
>resrictions on turboed open class cars.

There are some FIA procedures that are not so good.
Below you say you want the SCCA to follow FIA and WRC rules. In that case your Legacy would a) be too old to compete and b) if it was allowed, would require a 34mm restrictor when turbocharged. Be careful what you wish for...

>And then there is
>the cage issues, do you know that we have something like 5
>more bars that need to be installed in a rally car than a
>european based rally car does.

The FIA rules are not a whole lot different than the SCCA rules. A few years ago they were pretty minimal (and so were the SCCA rules), but they have added a few more required elements in the last four years.

>If Europe is the founding
>father of rally, then why wouldnt SCCA follow someone else's
>lead and see what they have done and accomplished.

You seriously think that they aren't looking at the FIA rules?

>Dave
>Hintz is right, you can only be calm for so long until
>rallying (a sport that everyone should enjoy, not just the
>elite or the rich) becomes almost insane with the rules and
>regs.

Try reading the FIA rulebook sometime - for all its faults, the SCCA rulebook is probably more readable (and is certainly shorter) than the FIA book.

>I swear sometimes I think that SCCA was founded by a
>bunch of circle track dwellers.

Actually, a bunch of sporty-car road-racers...;-)

>Im not one to bitch because
>I have had a blast rallying and it wouldnt be possible if
>there werent organizers volenteering there time. Trust me I
>have done my time! My dream is that SCCA follows FIA and
>WRC rules and regs much closer since that is where most of
>the media and sponsers for events flock to. And then maybe
>we would have more works teams like Audi, VW, Subaru,
>Mitsu...etc. Or even at all. Way to go Dodge for hangin in
>there.

Adrian
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! Agreed, but!!!

>Why is it that SCCA has denied the fact that the world had a
>much more suprior way of running things.
The 'rest of the world' is not composed of a monolithic, uniform set of rules
Each country has their own rules concerning classes tailored for the local conditions.
Many use the FIA rules concerning timing, controls, sinage, and vehicle saftey and build BUT IMPORTANTLY delete the rules regarding Homologation with all its stupidly restritive age and spare parts limitations for their Domestic series or internal classes.
The UK has its national classes, Sweden has its Grupp H including now a class for not only expired homologated cars, but a relaxed set of rules regarding replacement parts _expressly_ to make the cost of competing lower, so that a fwellow with a Misterbitchy Gaylant or n early Evo CAN swap out those crappy Mistu rods and pistons for aftermarket ones at a fraction of the cost of new crappy ones.
France has its National classes, Germany as well, and Finland has its immesnsely popular and spactacular Group F for 2wd Normal saspirated, far and away the most popular class.


I just started in
>club rally in my old ass legacy. I want to convert the car
>to a turbo car but whats the point if there are so many
>resrictions on turboed open class cars.

Convert it, use good rods and pistons, and a nice Garrett T3 turbo and have fun and LOBBY!

And then there is
>the cage issues, do you know that we have something like 5
>more bars that need to be installed in a rally car than a
>european based rally car does.

Actually its worse, but its understandable when the people writing the rules have little or no building experience and one source for information.



If Europe is the founding
>father of rally, then why wouldnt SCCA follow someone else's
>lead and see what they have done and accomplished. Dave
>Hintz is right, you can only be calm for so long until
>rallying (a sport that everyone should enjoy, not just the
>elite or the rich) becomes almost insane with the rules and
>regs. I swear sometimes I think that SCCA was founded by a
>bunch of circle track dwellers.
Circle track guys have really rigid dogmatic cage and construction rules, but the mess in SCCA seems to be coming from the fact that somebody feels compelled to justify his wages by re-writing rules about areas where it is clear that he lacks either actual or theoretical understanding.



Im not one to bitch because
>I have had a blast rallying and it wouldnt be possible if
>there werent organizers volenteering there time. Trust me I
>have done my time! My dream is that SCCA follows FIA and
>WRC rules and regs much closer since that is where most of
>the media and sponsers for events flock to.

People, sponsors and media are not flocking to WRC events because of the rules, they go because there are occasionally some exciting _ACTION_ to be seen, although that has been lass so with the 'nearly too easy to drive' modern WRC cars.





And then maybe
>we would have more works teams like Audi, VW, Subaru,
>Mitsu...etc. Or even at all. Way to go Dodge for hangin in
>there.
Have you noticed the WRC is down to just a few teams?
Their trend has priced out many many Factory and Importer teams, so they aren't for sure the model to look at.
We can and should pick and choose what we want from their rule book, but that's all.
>
> Gabe vonAhlefeld/Car
>#211





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

·
50 L3/CR 70 Yump 200
Joined
·
997 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

>Why is it that SCCA has denied the fact that the world had a much >more suprior way of running things.
1.Gabe- what makes you think this? Are you unaware of the trips our Yellow shirts and organizers have taken "over there" and the "experts" that have been brought in to check SCCA out?

>I just started
2.This might be part of the answer- see if you feel the same in five or ten years.

>in club rally in my old ass legacy.
3.That you could not run at all in many places.. ie: Thank You SCCA.

> And then there is the cage issues, do you know that we have >something like 5 more bars that need to be installed in a rally car >than a european based rally car does.
4.And are you aware of how much technology and research goes into design of those cages? - Guess you would be REALLY ticked off to find out how thin a lot of WRC tubing can be- Legally! (Call Doug Robinson on this one to check!)

> My dream is that SCCA follows FIA and WRC rules and regs much >closer since that is where most of the media and sponsers for events >flock to.
5.I think a lot of us felt that way- (esp. those of us on a tighter budget) until we became more involved and saw what those rules did to the "Clubman" Seeing what it is now is truely amazing, even more so if you consider the past- where much of the field at any given rally were local farmers.
Are you aware of what Rally Mexico has done to the Mexican Rally Championship this year? (darn near killed it) Because of the demand of the event to bring in the other Mex. organizers leaving them with little or no time for their own event.
And again - you have a what to run? Sorry, not legal at Rally Mexico
(I may be corrected on this one- even so, WHAT was the entry fee for that event?)

- Jeff Secor
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,443 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

Geez, Jeffy. I've never seen you so worked up. I figured this guy was just Mr. Forespring writing under an alias.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
868 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

From my standpoint, the change to 34 mm restrictors makes some sense. What caused me to "lose my calm" was that I thought it was being lowered all the way down to 32 mm for the typical turbocharged 2-liter open class car. The bulletin said "adjusted displacement" and I was using a turbo multiplier, thus the misunderstanding.

I do think these roll cage proposals are getting a little silly though.

Additionally, like Gabe, I'd like to see WRC cars eligible for US rally events. It's okay that I can't afford a used WRC car; if somebody else can, great! I'd still like to see them here. Many other countries have some WRC cars (a few years old) running their national championships.

Dave
Car # 207
 

·
straight at T
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

>Additionally, like Gabe, I'd like to see WRC cars eligible
>for US rally events. It's okay that I can't afford a used
>WRC car; if somebody else can, great! I'd still like to see
>them here. Many other countries have some WRC cars (a few
>years old) running their national championships.

Dave;

The concern I'd have with that is what happened in Australia a few years ago. Bates and Bourne were the only drivers who had the budget/support to run WRC cars, so unless they both broke nobody else had a chance. I'm not sure this is the model that we want for SCCA rallying (although it worked ok in the past...;-)).

Adrian
 

·
50 L3/CR 70 Yump 200
Joined
·
997 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

the corner bakery was out of crullers.

I find it amazing how threads get without anyone doing any homework.
- Might be fun to start our own rumor and see what happens eh?
I know - group 2 now limited to 2000cc .
(no adj. factors)

hehe
Jeffy, SNAFU? my work here is done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,407 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

>I know - group 2 now limited to 2000cc .
>(no adj. factors)

Really? I hadn't heard this! This is great news!:)

Re: WRCars. Why not? Most of the cars that make their way into private owners' hands are stripped of a lot of the finicky hi-dollar-to-performance-ratio parts. A nice Corolla WRC is likely cheaper to purchase than the cost involved in building a state of the art Open car and, if a guy had a couple machine tools, he could support it for about the same money, too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,443 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

>Re: WRCars. Why not? Most of the cars that make their way
>into private owners' hands are stripped of a lot of the
>finicky hi-dollar-to-performance-ratio parts. A nice
>Corolla WRC is likely cheaper to purchase than the cost
>involved in building a state of the art Open car and, if a
>guy had a couple machine tools, he could support it for
>about the same money, too.

This is especially true with the 12.27 mm restrictors that have been mandated for next year(I hope I didn't let the cat out of the bag).
 

·
don't cut
Joined
·
4,075 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

>Is that true? Pat R. is/has not been running a cat. all
>year?
No it is not true. I know for a fact that Pat replaced the down pipe cat with a bored out up pipe cat and a Saab 3 way Trionic system. This means that the air coming out the tail pipe of the car is cleaner than the air going in while running in Hong Kong.
 

·
50 L3/CR 70 Yump 200
Joined
·
997 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

SCCA is putting on a rally in Hong Kong?
- Fri/Sat or Sat/Sunday event?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,407 Posts
RE: SCCA Needs to wake up! ?

The Secular Cuban Cracksmoker's Association is having a rally in Hong Kong? Seems odd that they wouldn't stay on their own island. I smell a conspiracy of Castro proportions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,146 Posts
IF the SCCA had balls them might try something like this.

Go to Speed Vision, the Air Force, Hotwheels and others they have at least some relationship with now and work on a joint rally program that would promote the drivers and provide a number of spetacular drive that look good on TV.

To do this they would get a builder to build about 6 to 10 identical RWD Turbo cars that would then be leased to the drivers/teams competing for the national championship. They would set the program up to last about 4-6 years at a minimum and be willing to add more cars after getting the program going.

As the cars are all idential the driver would be the variable and thus drivers would need to push hard all the time to win. RWD cars driven hard look good, very good on TV. Cost to get started as a driver would be low as it is a lease, cost to put the program together would be lowish as there is an income steam from the lease payments. Heck it might even be possible to include some of the cost of TV in the lease pmt's and all people in the class would get some TV time, to help them get sponsorship, might need more like 15 - 20 cars to make that work however...

As part of the deal the car builder might provide service and transport to all the events.

Might be possible in 4wd cars too, but to make 4wd cars look fast take a lot more power and thus money.

Running some quick numbers, a true arive and drive program like this should be possible for less than $5,000 per month for the year long program wtih out even concidering the residual vaule of the car at then end of it life. With economies of scale it might even be possible for a lot less than that.

I think the keys here are start with a cheap shell (Volvo240 but that looks dated, Neon SRT??(even though FWD)), build it safe strong and fun to watch, get economies by building several cars at the same time with common parts. Get more economies by all using one tire brand and everyone gets a type of tire at an event, a med-hard so it last a while. As the cars get shipped on one truck hey that cost less to, I think you see where this is going.

Lets face it, the reward in rallying is the driving, as long as a car has decent pull, good ballance, is competive and is safe I do not care what I drive. The selection of manufactures, tires, seats etc, that is all for the benifit of people selling me stuff not for my benifit so lets cut that part out and just go drive.

Derek
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,443 Posts
You can do that on your own now with the SRT4, for less than $60,000/yr., AND have the car in your name when it's all over. Everything on Doug's(& Paul's) car is for sale at a relatively good price. It's designed to work with the restrictor(no 8 figure development budget like the WRC teams), it's very reliable, and replacement pieces are readily available. Of course, then you have to race against those two(no more "I could be as fast as the big boys if I had their cars").
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,407 Posts
It's designed to work with the
>restrictor(no 8 figure development budget like the WRC
>teams)...

What restrictor?
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Top