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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anything trickled-down or has the membership been trickled on?

Are there ClubRally results in SportsCar?

Are the a sufficent number of ClubRally articles in SportsCar?

Does SCCA market ClubRally as they do ProRally?

Why are most 2000 & 2001 ClubRally champions not listed in the appropriate sections of the 2002 rulebook?

Why is there still no suitable ClubRally site acquiston package available to ClubRally organizers to provide to prospective land owners/land managers?

Who thinks they can represent sponsors fairly for the money they have invested in (donated to) our teams in a series with no promotion?

Why isn't safety a bigger issue? Newbies take a first time competitor seminar and go rally. No training material provided other than a short list of topics for the instructor to cover. And who qualifies the instructors? I've been to ClubvRallies that have started without a Safety officer designated period. Who is montitoring this? Are there ClubRally stewards do nothing but sign sanctions and present awards?

Why is the event insurance due to increase (alot)? See saftey above and think about it.

Why is there not a paid ClubRally only position at SCCA HQ?

Why are the majotity of rally clubmembers being forced out of ProRally to a series that is falling through the cracks?

Why would anyone want to run ClubRally?
 

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don't cut
Joined
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4,075 Posts
>Has anything trickled-down or has the membership been
>trickled on?
>
> Are there ClubRally results in SportsCar?
Yes.
>
> Are the a sufficent number of ClubRally articles in
>SportsCar?
Of course not. And those that are there never mention me by name.
>
> Does SCCA market ClubRally as they do ProRally?
No. Nor is Club Racing marketed like TransAm.
>
> Why are most 2000 & 2001 ClubRally champions not listed in
>the appropriate sections of the 2002 rulebook?
I have been blaming the stewards for not sending the information in. May be or may not be so.
>
> Why is there still no suitable ClubRally site acquiston
>package available to ClubRally organizers to provide to
>prospective land owners/land managers?
I got information I needed.
>
> Who thinks they can represent sponsors fairly for the money
>they have invested in (donated to) our teams in a series
>with no promotion?
??????
>
> Why isn't safety a bigger issue? Newbies take a first time
>competitor seminar and go rally. No training material
>provided other than a short list of topics for the
>instructor to cover. And who qualifies the instructors? I've
>been to ClubvRallies that have started without a Safety
>officer designated period. Who is montitoring this? Are
>there ClubRally stewards do nothing but sign sanctions and
>present awards?
Ask your steward directly.
>
> Why is the event insurance due to increase (alot)? See
>saftey above and think about it.
My house insurance just jumped $1500 a year. I am not happy about that either.
>
> Why is there not a paid ClubRally only position at SCCA HQ?
Not enough work to justify the position in my opinion.
>
> Why are the majotity of rally clubmembers being forced out
>of ProRally to a series that is falling through the cracks?

And which series is falling through the cracks in your opinion?
>
> Why would anyone want to run ClubRally?
We enjoy it.
Richard Miller
 

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400 flat to crest
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5,777 Posts
Didn't the topic in the recent past address this question with the wonderful photo of the "two tier" outhouse I sent to Brian "Kartwheel" and which was gracefully "photo-shopped" by Daphne Bogert?

The frenzied fixation on a fantasy future for the sport has obscured the fact that the broad base of the membership, particularly for beginners, especially club rally level, has been completely ignored.

Well, a bit of reflection and you might see that SCCA Pro Rally Leadership also ignores the Pro Rally series pretty effectively as soon as there is a little trifling decision to make: Nothing published about the scanalous Wild West debacle, and the mishandling and secrecy around the dropping of the penalties.

Haven't you been reading this Forum and the old CRS thing?

If you want to build something then you start at the very top like choosing and mounting the weather-vane at the top of the chimney, the build the chimney then the roof, then the rafters etc.

Isn't that how things are built?
Anybody out there is coputer world that actually builds things, maybe we could ask them.

Too bad in this "Vision" of reality the crowing rooster which is so so popular for weathervanes positioned where it is it gets blown first this way then that as the wind blows and in any case it's obscured in smoke half the time, even it's own smoke.

And after this amount of time, the weather vane Crowing Rooster is looking pretty one dimensional and very very Tarnished.

Hey! Have you considered just buying a new car from Prodrive and service support?
Wouldn't that be easier?





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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Lancia037

You had _SO_MUCH_ fun running Pro you want to keep at it?

Really?

Then no whining about how much is sucks next year. Promise!

paul t-
 

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Faster Mabricator
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3,611 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I never said I had fun running ProRally. Just did it because it was there.
Don't worry, I wont be running ProRally next year, except Maine. (Buffum has a clue, HINT: notice which event he drove this year HINTHINT: IT wasn't in the US)
Promise.


> Are there ClubRally results in SportsCar?
Yes.

Barely. Most are not.

> Why are most 2000 & 2001 ClubRally champions not listed in
>the appropriate sections of the 2002 rulebook?
I have been blaming the stewards for not sending the information in.

That would be part of the job of the paid ClubRally person at SCCA HQ that you don't believe there is enough work for.

> Why is there still no suitable ClubRally site acquiston
>package available to ClubRally organizers to provide to
>prospective land owners/land managers?
I got information I needed.

Please! I've seen what they have. No environmental impact statements and no economic benefits information, the two most important items are missing. Not even a description of what a ClubRally is.

> Who thinks they can represent sponsors fairly for the money
>they have invested in (donated to) our teams in a series
>with no promotion?
??????

Who can ask a sponsor to throw away their money in a series that will never get any promotion?

> Why are the majotity of rally clubmembers being forced out
>of ProRally to a series that is falling through the cracks?
And which series is falling through the cracks in your opinion?

ClubRally!

> Why would anyone want to run ClubRally?
We enjoy it.

Fine, I like rally too. But why would I run ClubRally when I can go to Canada, pay less than ClubRally entry fees to run National events, be on Canadian National TV in both English & French, have plenty of opportunity for sponsorship and the chance to promote sponsors to a larger spectator base than even SCCA ProRally, get free Rallycar ID package, are always a 1 or 2 digit car# no matter how slow the driver, cheaper licenses and membership, have event results, standings and stories mailed to me after each event (which SCCA no longer does), no SCCA doublestandards, am consulted annually and ask for views on all proposed rulechanges as are all licenseholders, prize$ and contingency$ and sometimes towmoney, a great currency exchange rate and real beer. And no, I don't live anywhere near Canada either.

Not don't you all get wise and start coming north, make your series here better. Demand change. Its your club.
 

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>> Why are the majotity of rally clubmembers being forced out
>>of ProRally to a series that is falling through the cracks?
>And which series is falling through the cracks in your
>opinion?
>
>ClubRally!

In whose opinion? Depends on which coast you happen to be participating on... on the West Coast, the ClubRally program is thriving... we have three Pro events every year, and the rest are Club only. In the PNW we have at least 10 events, including WW and OT; more Club only events are being added to the calendar.

Maybe the majority of the rally competitors on the East coast are being forced to run Pro events, but that's because y'all don't have supporting Club events.

As for why we run Club.... because we have so many dang events, so much fun, and get to play with a lot of really neat people. :)

KT
 

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don't cut
Joined
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>
>Barely. Most are not.
So write. Yes more results could be posted it would seem. But then Club Races get overlooked also.
>
>> Why are most 2000 & 2001 ClubRally champions not listed in
>>the appropriate sections of the 2002 rulebook?
>I have been blaming the stewards for not sending the
>information in.
>
>That would be part of the job of the paid ClubRally person
>at SCCA HQ that you don't believe there is enough work for.
I doubt points tabulation would be a full time job.

>
>Who can ask a sponsor to throw away their money in a series
>that will never get any promotion?

Even in NASCAR, sponsors do not get there money's worth from TV exposure. Rather they get from the indirect tie-ins. Dale Jarrett doing ads for example. Or drivers and cars appearing at malls, etc.
>
>> Why are the majotity of rally clubmembers being forced out
>>of ProRally to a series that is falling through the cracks?
>And which series is falling through the cracks in your
>opinion?
>
>ClubRally!
I knew that was what you were going to say. :)
>
>> Why would anyone want to run ClubRally?
>We enjoy it.
>
>Fine, I like rally too. But why would I run ClubRally when I
>can go to Canada, > snipped so I can make a wise ass comment <

Because it is almost 2000 miles from here to Canada. And only 1000 from VA.
Richard Miller
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
East coast ClubRally Trickled-on

>Maybe the majority of the rally competitors on the East
>coast are being forced to run Pro events, but that's because
>y'all don't have supporting Club events.

4 NEDiv ClubRallies were stomped on by the growth of ProRally when they took the Club events from STPR and Maine. It took a year and a couple dedicated people stepping up to organize new events to replace them. It should have been thought out before those events were cancelled.

Now, some other division's ClubRallyist with dual entry ProRallys get to enter these combined events and learn the roads before becoming Pro ginig them a homefeild advantage whereas ClubRallyist from divisions without combined events aren't offered a homefeild advantage. Futhermore, ClubRallyist from dual entry divisions get the opportunity to use and learn pace notes where ClubRallyist from division w/o dual entry events have no opportunity to learn until they enter a ProRally.

And without dual entry events in the region, ClubRallyist lose much of their marketing potential for sponsors they once had when they could enter a ClubRally that was also a ProRally.
 

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I was going to respond, then I wasn't brecause all I hear is TOTAL negativisim and I am learning I don't have to respond to everything. But now I have to. The below quote is certainly the reason I'm going to go run all my events in Canada next year.


>even SCCA ProRally, get free Rallycar ID package, are always
>a 1 or 2 digit car# no matter how slow the driver,
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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East coast ClubRally problems

>4 NEDiv ClubRallies were stomped on by the growth of
>ProRally when they took the Club events from STPR and Maine.
>It took a year and a couple dedicated people stepping up to
>organize new events to replace them. It should have been
>thought out before those events were cancelled.

How many times must this be gone over before blame for the situation about which you are whining is aimed at the parties responsible? Your fellow NEDiv members, the organizers of STPR and MFR, made the decision to go 'ProRally-only' without outside interference. They obviously understand that ClubRally license holders running in ProRally "co-op" events are offered nothing more than surplus slots and when there are no surplus slots there is no need to request a ClubRally sanction.

Why don't you petition the people who can actually change the situation? If it helps, John McArthur may be reached at [email protected] and John Buffum is an email away at [email protected].

>Now, some other division's ClubRallyist with dual entry
>ProRally get to enter these combined events and learn the
>roads before becoming Pro ginig them a homefeild advantage
>whereas ClubRallyist from divisions without combined events
>aren't offered a homefeild advantage. Futhermore,
>ClubRallyist from dual entry divisions get the opportunity
>to use and learn pace notes where ClubRallyist from division
>w/o dual entry events have no opportunity to learn until
>they enter a ProRally.
>
>And without dual entry events in the region, ClubRallyist
>lose much of their marketing potential for sponsors they
>once had when they could enter a ClubRally that was also a
>ProRally.

This is exactly the sort of info you should share with McArthur and Buffum so they might be convinced to rearrange the priorities of their events. I know of no other parties who have the power to change the situation.

FWIW, the upcoming ClubRally National Championship (which once again will be headquartered in the middle of nowhere) will NOT offer stage notes because of inconsistent access to stage notes by ClubRally competitors across the country. Last evening the ClubRally Stewards voted unanimously to support Greg Healey's request to keep stage notes out of 100AW but we quickly found out that Kim DeMotte and his organizing committee had already made that very decision.

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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Faster Mabricator
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3,611 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
>The below quote is
>certainly the reason I'm going to go run all my events in
>Canada next year.

Don,
You forgot to select the beer.
 

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>I don't imbibe.

Maybe not, but they'll still ask you to declare your preference at the border...

Robin
 

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don't cut
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>Yes.
>
>Barely. Most are not.
>
Dave, My feelings weren't hurt by your saying I'm slow. I am. But I don't finish last any or next to last as often now. :)

Richard
 

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Does it strike anyone as odd that the people who complain when SCCA uses SportsCar as the medium for informing the membership about things are the same people who complain when they're not mentioned in the magazine?

And the people who complain about everything being directed by the National Office are the same ones that want more people hired there?

Or am I just getting punchy from too large a dose of Special Stage negativity?

Bruce
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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RE: SCCA ClubRally issues

> Are there ClubRally results in SportsCar?

I'll wager that the results of every event for which results were submitted to the magazine have been published.

> Are the a sufficent number of ClubRally articles in SportsCar?

Arguably the biggest and best Sports Car Magazine coverage of a 2002 performance rally event (bar NONE) was in the May 2002 edition where five pages and a small cover picture were devoted to the 2002 Rally in the 100 Acre Wood. In case you missed that issue copies of "Resurrection in the Woods" may be viewed at http://www.realautosport.com/pics/Beetle/100AW-02/100AW-02.html .

http://www.realautosport.com/pics/Beetle/100AW-02/SCMay02A_small.jpg http://www.realautosport.com/pics/Beetle/100AW-02/SCMay02B_small.jpg http://www.realautosport.com/pics/Beetle/100AW-02/SCMay02D_small.jpg http://www.realautosport.com/pics/Beetle/100AW-02/SCMay02E_small.jpg http://www.realautosport.com/pics/Beetle/100AW-02/SCMay02F_small.jpg

Given the fact that ProRally is gaining a wider audience thanks to media interest from outside the SCCA I'd say that Heine's article stands as a great example of returning something to the ClubRallyist for his efforts and given the reponse to that rally and article you can bet there will be a similar effort (at least) to cover the 2003 event.

> Does SCCA market ClubRally as they do ProRally?

Of course not! No one ever said they should and I'd rather they didn't. Krikey, the vocal minority is having a hissy-fit over ProRally and you're complaining because SCCA isn't treating ClubRally the same way?

> Why are most 2000 & 2001 ClubRally champions not listed in
>the appropriate sections of the 2002 rulebook?

Can't say for sure, but my guess is that there are priorities regarding the rule book of more importance than listing divisional champs. I think your idea deserves attention so I've submitted an agenda item for the next ClubRally Steward's conference call to see if we can't straighten that out.

> Who thinks they can represent sponsors fairly for the money
>they have invested in (donated to) our teams in a series
>with no promotion?

Anyone who has represented their ClubRally involvement to a sponsor as anything but a hobby is probably flirting with fraud. You want media impressions and exposure for your efforts then you should create them yourself or ante up to run the ProRally series and hope you are noticed there. Returns on investment supporting a ClubRally car are most likely to come from between-event activities of the car, not the competition it was built for.

> Why isn't safety a bigger issue? Newbies take a first time
>competitor seminar and go rally. No training material
>provided other than a short list of topics for the
>instructor to cover. And who qualifies the instructors? I've
>been to ClubvRallies that have started without a Safety
>officer designated period. Who is montitoring this? Are
>there ClubRally stewards do nothing but sign sanctions and
>present awards?

If you had any inkling how far safety issues have come since the early 70s you'd know that it is a never-ending process that continues to evolve. There was a day when a single hoop with a couple braces was good enough roll-over protection, when anyone with a checkbook and the ability to regurgitate their name, address & phone number onto a piece of paper was issued a PRO Rally license, when almost any helmet was accepted, when marshals, control workers & others were not required to be in direct radio contact, where any number of other dangerous situations were ignorantly allowed to continue until lessons were learned from our mistakes. When we were lucky we realized it was dangerous to rally with a sunroof open thanks to someone's close call rolling-over near a stump. When we weren't lucky we lost John Woolf and Grant Whittaker.

A piece at a time, a revelation at a time and a catastrophe at a time has allowed us to assemble a safer sport and there's no reason to think that practice will not continue.

> Why is there not a paid ClubRally only position at SCCA HQ?

Because there is no compelling evidence indicating that the volunteers watching over ClubRally are messing things up badly enough to justify creating a position for which there is no funding.

> Why are the majotity of rally clubmembers being forced out
>of ProRally to a series that is falling through the cracks?

A few minutes research on www.rallyracingnews.com reveals that there were SIX stand-alone SCCA ClubRallys in 1997, EIGHT stand-alone SCCA ClubRallys in 1998, FIVE stand-alone SCCA ClubRallys in 1999, TEN stand-alone SCCA ClubRallys in 2000, TWENTY-ONE stand-alone SCCA ClubRallys in 2001 and TWENTY-TWO stand-alone SCCA ClubRallys in 2002. That must be a damned big crack ...

> Why would anyone want to run ClubRally?

So far as stand-alone ClubRally events are concerned:

- No 20-year rule
- No manufacturer teams
- No ID package requirements
- No TV cameras snooping around
- Closer to home than most ProRallys
- No car is too old to run in Production
- Better chance to score a top overall finish
- Fewer non-competition requirements of your time
- You get to race against people who want to be there
- Few if any internationally-ranked drivers to compete with
- More forgiving appearance requirements (more dents permitted)
- No seeding restrictions (except for those applauded events that are filling from seed 8 up)
- Fewer spectators to cause stage closures
- Lower entry fees
- Less pressure
- More fun

That enough?

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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Faster Mabricator
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3,611 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
>Dave, My feelings weren't hurt by your saying I'm slow. I
>am.

Richard, What I meant was drive faster. Remember I'm an old Saaber myself. Yump it if you got it!
 

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just another old phart
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RE: SCCA ClubRally issues

>> Why isn't safety a bigger issue?
>
>If you had any inkling how far safety issues have come since
>the early 70s you'd know that it is a never-ending process
>that continues to evolve. There was a day when a single hoop
>with a couple braces was good enough roll-over protection,
>when anyone with a checkbook and the ability to regurgitate
>their name, address & phone number onto a piece of paper was
>issued a PRO Rally license, when almost any helmet was
>accepted, when marshals, control workers & others were not
>required to be in direct radio contact, where any number of
>other dangerous situations were ignorantly allowed to
>continue until lessons were learned from our mistakes. When
>we were lucky we realized it was dangerous to rally with a
>sunroof open thanks to someone's close call rolling-over
>near a stump. When we weren't lucky we lost John Woolf and
>Grant Whittaker.
>

Mike, I agree with everything you included except the helmet matter. When we started in 1973 the requirement was for 1970 version Snell approvals on the helmets. It was the best standard available at the time.

Kent Gardam
 
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