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> Have them
>already placed before recce (maybe mark ground with spraypaint
>where they belong in case they are moved before rally begins
>so the can be reset) so we know which curves we'll be able to
>cut that aren't deemed a hazard for bringing gravel onto the
>tarmac while writing out notes.
Slightly off topic, but still worth mentioning from a safety perspective is something that the organisors of one round of our national championship found out last year - make sure that all the bunting is up marking out the spectator areas before recce starts! We had an overseas crew that competed here last year and while we all knew that the drivers here are expected to more or less stick to the formed road - nobody pointed that out to the overseas crew, so they proceeded to make their pacenotes with the plan of totally straightlining at about 130mph the "crest then 70 R5 then 60 L6 on big crest" that was in a large open area in the forest. They even got out of their car on the recce and walked through the grass and made sure that there were no stumps etc in there anywhere, and then they picked their aiming marker for the launch off the first crest so as they could straight line the whole lot at Warp 6. 12,500 spectators never moved faster when they suddenly realised that the approaching Subaru that they couldn't yet see over the crest wasn't backing off - and you didn't have to speak fluent Finnish to understand the gist of the language that was said on the in car camera when they came over the first crest in 6th gear and discovered an enormous amount of bunting and fleeing spectators right in their planned path. The annual "Running of the Bulls" at Pamplona in Spain simply didn't even compare to what Juha managed that day. So always make sure the bunting is up during recce!
 

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straight at T
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2,472 Posts
>Slightly off topic, but still worth mentioning from a safety
>perspective is something that the organisors of one round of
>our national championship found out last year - make sure that
>all the bunting is up marking out the spectator areas before
>recce starts! We had an overseas crew that competed here last
>year and while we all knew that the drivers here are expected
>to more or less stick to the formed road - nobody pointed that
>out to the overseas crew, so they proceeded to make their
>pacenotes with the plan of totally straightlining at about
>130mph the "crest then 70 R5 then 60 L6 on big crest" that was
>in a large open area in the forest. They even got out of
>their car on the recce and walked through the grass and made
>sure that there were no stumps etc in there anywhere, and then
>they picked their aiming marker for the launch off the first
>crest so as they could straight line the whole lot at Warp 6.
>12,500 spectators never moved faster when they suddenly
>realised that the approaching Subaru that they couldn't yet
>see over the crest wasn't backing off - and you didn't have to
>speak fluent Finnish to understand the gist of the language
>that was said on the in car camera when they came over the
>first crest in 6th gear and discovered an enormous amount of
>bunting and fleeing spectators right in their planned path.
>The annual "Running of the Bulls" at Pamplona in Spain simply
>didn't even compare to what Juha managed that day. So always
>make sure the bunting is up during recce!

Kent;

What that suggests to me is that it was perhaps not a particularly sensible place to put spectators in the first place - not because of the potential for competitiors to intentionally drive through there, but more because they may un-intentionally end up there if they blow the first part of the instruction or have a mechanical failure over the first crest...

Your sentiment is correct, though. Having the major things marked prior to recce is a good idea. We've recced an event where they didn't manage to mark the finish of a stage, so our notes went all the way to the junction beyond the stage end and I added the finnish to them on the first running of the stage.

Adrian
 

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Dirt surfer
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There WERE anti-ditch-hook hay bales on those tarmac stages last year. They were in place even for recce.

Two problems emerged.

One, drivers soon found out that hay bales are not a real impediment to speeding rally cars. Perhaps more accurately, the bales were discovered not to be an impediment to large SUVs on recce. Many bales were pre-exploded before hurtling Evos straightening out the bends finished the job. I ran over a few hay-piles myself...strictly by accident, you understand.

Two, after the recce, some fresh bales were put out. Then that night, some enterprising local came along and picked them all up! Guess somebody's horses ate well for a month thanks to Rally NY.

Gravel making the pavement "interesting" is part of what makes tarmac rally different, something the crews need to be well aware of. There were a few places where we decided to go a little wide where the grip was still good instead of skittering thru the marbles on the proper line.

Even learned a new term to describe such a road surface from a couple Irish guys-- "sheet, that stage was fookin' MARBLY!"

Dave G
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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The secret to the Oregon bales was the instruction that some were hiding steel and concrete or worse,
With the NYC group, I'd make sure that it was more than a threat on the first few opportunities.
rz
 

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I have a cat.
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I've got 50 or 60 spent rally tires at the shop...

Spike 'em down with railroad spikes?

I dunno. I like Oregon's idea. Pounding some re-rod thru a half dozen of the bales at various places would wake folks up, but won't stop the enterprising locals.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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3,611 Posts
>I dunno. I like Oregon's idea. Pounding some re-rod thru a
>half dozen of the bales at various places would wake folks up,
>but won't stop the enterprising locals.

How about pounding a wooden stake thru them with an arrow pointing down so that approaching rallycars will be able to see exactly where the apex is? The stake would make it harder for locals to steal the haybale.

Yes, more work and expense for organizer but beats having to throw and transit a stage because of injury like 2004? More fun for competitors as the playing feild throughout the start order is more level so comparing results between the leaders, up-and-coming drivers and back-markers is comparing the same road conditions (harder to replicate in gravel rallies).
 

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I think they just need to set up a few random observers to mark down the cars that hit the bales and give them a huge time penalty (10 mins). This might give the real fast guys an incentive to slow down a little in the sections with hay bales.
Just my thoughts
Adam
 

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codriveur
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beats having to
>throw and transit a stage because of injury like 2004?

Was the cause of that accident ever defined if so I missed it. I forget what running order they were but they sure where not back markers. And it was the first run through the stage so it was not that dirty even if it was the cause. They had mechanical issues the whole event if I remember, and like the inference it was too marbly in a turn I would not blame that for their accident without knowing it for sure.

Bernie
 

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The bales were mostly in place and seemed to be working as well as could be expected in many places at IRNY 2005.

If anywhere, I think that the attention needed is in the cone chicanes. I lost count of the number of chicanes that were blitzed early on and then never reset by workers. There either needs to be a person to reset them or a more solid object used.

The tarmac roads at RNY are relatively dirty and uneven in many places. If you are driving like they are a clean tarmac racetrack you are almost guaranteed to go off eventually.

-C
 

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I have a cat.
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>...with an arrow
>pointing down so that approaching rallycars will be able to
>see exactly where the apex is?

C'mon, Dave! Apex markers? This is RALLY, not conesquishing! :) :)
 

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Faster Mabricator
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>Was the cause of that accident ever defined if so I missed it.

Thats what James had said and I believe it.

>I forget what running order they were but they sure where not
>back markers.

Think we (was riding with A.Havas) started the stage just ahead of them and were last car to finish the stage. It was marbly and there were 2 narrow curves with in-moveable objects on outside. Bet I know which one it was they crashed on.

>And it was the first run through the stage so it
>was not that dirty even if it was the cause.

??????Huh?????
It was the only run through the stage. Check the stage schedule.
http://rallynewyork.com/rny04-itinerary.html
2 tarmac stages ran one time each.

And the results here show that the speeds on the tarmac stages were significantly faster than the gravel stages.
http://rallynewyork.com/rny04-results.html
The average speed is ~10 miles per hour faster despite the stages being much shorter (longest tarmac stage being 4 miles and 1/4 of the first mile is just to get upto speed). 85mile average for 2.3mile stage is hauling. By Canadian rules, the results of the faster cars would have been changed and the stage would need to be revised before it could be used again in a rally.

>They had
>mechanical issues the whole event if I remember,

Yeah, I remember that too.

>and like the
>inference it was too marbly in a turn I would not blame that
>for their accident without knowing it for sure.

I saw James at Carlisle import show while he still had his cast on. Straight from the horse's mouth.
 

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Dirt surfer
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Cutting corners is a calculated risk. Maybe you gain a few seconds, maybe you blow a tarmac tire on a hidden rock in the grass. Each team has to decide what risk/reward ratio is acceptable.

Spiking haybales with rebar or concrete doesn't sound like it adds to the safety in any way. Maybe tire piles at the apexes would make the point. Buffum employed tire chicanes at Maine Forest and nobody cut them (much).

Marbly tarmac is simply a given on sealed-surface rallies. It's a novelty that North American teams have to learn about, and some will no doubt learn the hard way. Even WRC teams have issues with this--Makinen, Loeb, Gronholm et al have stuffed many a car skating on marbles. Privateer star Manfred Stohl just smooshed his Peugeot while testing on tarmac for Rally Catalunya.

Ppl can always choose to slow down a touch.

DG


"...Embrace loose gravel (even on tarmac), beware big trees..."
 

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straight at T
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>The bales were mostly in place and seemed to be working as
>well as could be expected in many places at IRNY 2005.
>
>If anywhere, I think that the attention needed is in the cone
>chicanes. I lost count of the number of chicanes that were
>blitzed early on and then never reset by workers. There either
>needs to be a person to reset them or a more solid object
>used.
>

Don't make them solid - that can cause a real safety issue if someone blows the chicane by accident. What you can do is marshal the chicane and penalize the offending car 15 sec per element (cone) hit. This seems to work reasonably well in CARS events. As long as the penalty cost is higher than the cost of driving the chicane as intended, this will provide a deterrent.

Adrian
 

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codriveur
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>It was the only run through the stage. Check the stage
>schedule.
>http://rallynewyork.com/rny04-itinerary.html
>2 tarmac stages ran one time each.

Since it was not run I didn't remeber that off the top of my head

>I saw James at Carlisle import show while he still had his
>cast on. Straight from the horse's mouth.

Best source and as I said if it was out there I missed it. Hope he healed well.

Still I agree w/ DG it's part of the rally, pick a different line or back off a bit, on Blind Pond I called the turns that get marbly and added "Dirty" to the call for the driver. Like dust it's force majeure.

Bernie
 

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Dirt surfer
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...or post warning signs...

CAUTION!!! Gravel On Road, May Be Slippy As Heck

CAUTION!!! Chicane Ahead, Organizers Suggest You Slow Down

CAUTION!!! If it rains, road surface MAY BECOME WET, lessening coefficient of friction

CAUTION!!! If You Screw Up Here, Bad Things May Occur


Seriously, tho, the chicane cone issue needs to be addressed. There was a stage canceled at IRNY last fall, and while transiting thru, I banged straight over the cones in a chicane, My codriver yelled, "Whaddya do THAT for?" I replied, "We've been dodging those things all day, I wanted to see how it was to take them like everybody else has been."

DG


"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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don't cut
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Well, we have a reasonably good explanation for rallyist to stay on the road at Rallye de Paris. In some areas, unexploded ordinance has been found. This is a very good incentive to be careful.
Richard
 

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>Spiking haybales with rebar or concrete doesn't sound like it
>adds to the safety in any way.

What about putting anti-tank mines in them?

>Marbly tarmac is simply a given on sealed-surface rallies.

YEP.

>Ppl can always choose to slow down a touch.

YEP.

Of all the stupid ideas I have heard, this putting concrete etc. in the hay takes the cake.

Put in Armco barriers, or concrete barriers, or do something sensible like.... slow down!
 
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> The all-tarmac RallyNY is approaching quickly. Last I ran
>it there were several fast fun tarmac stages but was unable to
>fully enjoy because of the concern of gravel on every corner
>that the previous cars dragged onto the road when cutting
>corners or ditch-hooking. Seems this may have been the cause
>for James Fox's nasty off in which he broke his leg and the
>stage was scrubbed because of the medical emergency. High
>speeds because we have traction but on some curves where
>ditch-hooking was possible, it was suddenly like being on ball
>bearings.
>
> At previous RallyNY events (and others), artifical chicanes
>have been used in mega straights to slow rallycars. Fine. What
>I'm suggesting is nothing new. First I've seen them was at
>Oregon Trail as a request by the agency who manages the forest
>to prevent erosion. On fast speed curves where ditch-hooking
>may bring loose gravel onto the tarmac, place haybales on apex
>to prevent cars from entering the loose surface. Have them
>already placed before recce (maybe mark ground with spraypaint
>where they belong in case they are moved before rally begins
>so the can be reset) so we know which curves we'll be able to
>cut that aren't deemed a hazard for bringing gravel onto the
>tarmac while writing out notes.
>
> I think by implementing such a device, not only will the
>event be safer, but the competetion throughout the entire
>field will be more fair(earlier cars in start order have less
>to no gravel to worry about while later cars must slow
>expecting gravel in many curves/corners).
>
> Input anyone? Ivan? NASA organizers?
>
>Dave Shindle
>http://www.cardomain.com/ride/803556


Our standard policy on the fast Mathias Weiden stage is to put
haybales at the apex and thoughout the turn. This stage looks like a
road racing track in the woods. The purpose of this is to keep
competitors on the tarmac and prevent them from cuttting over
the grass, which could be done to a great extent on that stage.

Make no mistake about this: We are doing this in order not do damage
the road shoulder or chip off the edge of the tarmac.

Since there is so little experience with tarmac stages in the US,
there is a misplaced concern about gravel thrown on the road
at the apex: Cutting the tarmac turns through the grass and gravel
on the road shoulder and gravel thrown on the road by rally cars in
front of you is a common part of tarmac rallying in many places
throughout the world. Just watch the WRC broadcasts.

This is what makes tarmac rallying different from road racing, this
is why FIA has Appendix IV specifying molded tarmac tires with
thread and the drivers just have to drive accordingly.

This is an issue only to the extent that drivers must be aware,
anticipate these conditions and, appropriately, note such possible
conditions in their pace notes as warranted by the configuration
of the road shoulder at the apex.

Ivan Orisek
Rally New York USA
International Rally New York
United States Rally Championship
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Thanks for info Ivan.
Looking at this year's stage maps, the stages appear that they have less mega-long straights than the 2004 edition in that there are at least many acute junctions to slow cars some.

And wanted to clarify that haybales and barrier taped areas would be done so before recce.
 

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>...or post warning signs...
>
>CAUTION!!! Gravel On Road, May Be Slippy As Heck
>
>CAUTION!!! Chicane Ahead, Organizers Suggest You Slow Down
>
>CAUTION!!! If it rains, road surface MAY BECOME WET, lessening
>coefficient of friction
>
>CAUTION!!! If You Screw Up Here, Bad Things May Occur
>
>
>Seriously, tho, the chicane cone issue needs to be addressed.
>There was a stage canceled at IRNY last fall, and while
>transiting thru, I banged straight over the cones in a
>chicane, My codriver yelled, "Whaddya do THAT for?" I replied,
>"We've been dodging those things all day, I wanted to see how
>it was to take them like everybody else has been."
>
>DG
>
>
>"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."

BIG ROUND BALES ARE THE BEST FOR CHICANES, NO ONE WANT'S TO HIT THEM THEY DO A LOT OF DAMAGE,as for gravel on corners that should be noted when rcce is been done, What the first car's driveing line will be, The fast boy's up front sometimes change the degree of the corners changeing it from a 3 to a 4 and so on, I have seen top drivers go all the way into the grass to get a straight line...This is all planed during recce. A
 
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