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Oi, Daphne some good suggestion, but I would have headed up the numerous small grammatical and spelling things under a separate header so as not to dilute the rules related items, which are far more critical to have them look at.

2 points: Regarding triangle placement...what is meant by "placed withn 30 sections" ? ;)

And any map should be allowed, a map is a map.
If it's because its not a product, a commodity like 'course note' to make money for SCCA amd a plum to pitch to ???somebody to make them OK, but a map in and of itself is just a map.

Without skilled use it's just scratchy bum wipe.

WHY would one need to ban a map?














John Vanlandingham
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks John.

In terms of headings, etc. I wish I had the time to do multiple sections, etc. Unfortunately it took a lot just to get down what I did. I certainly hope my comments are not lost and I'm going to have to trust the PRB to be thorough in their review. But, if you or anyone else would like to volunteer to reorganize the document, I'm all for it!

Thanks for pointing out my one spell checking error. I've corrected it. Would you like to proof read my client deliverables as well? ;-)

As for maps, I spent a lot of time thinking about it. Ask yourself this - what is a map? Could I watch my STPR video from last year and create a map that is accurate? Could I sell it to the general public?

I used a map on one stage at Maine last year. Aside from wanting to loose my lunch, I started to realize that the information was pretty darn close to pace notes and I believe this goes against the spirit of rally here in the US. I've had a fair amount of back and forth regarding this issue with the PRB in the past, and I don't feel like going through it all again. Suffice to say they know where I am coming from and it's their choice if they want to do something about it.

"bum wipe" - LOL!
 

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400 flat to crest
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Well, being all folded up I could'nt very rightfully call it a 'bog roll*' now could I.

My preference for maps vs other aids is as maps actually require a skill to use and interpret, and as SPORT are usually intended to contests of skill, reading a map, being a skill, fits the spirit of motorSPORT.

The commodification of every aspect of the Sport carries with it a need to assure the profitability of every commodity, and the only way to assure profitability is to control all aspects of the production, and distribution, and sales of the commodity.
This is the process we see inexorably working to transform every aspect of the sport and is at the base of nearly all the resistance we have seen here and elsewhere.

The 'course note' commodity, controlled thru SCCA, will the price ever go down?

No, leave maps free to those who want the challenge or prefer the format the information comes in.

Choice, ain't that the Amerikanski way?












*As in the sentance "Oi! where's that roll, I'm off to the bogs"
You might want to see Dave Keans off topic forum entry on English Rally expressions. He's is missing the near ubiquitous (in the north) saying Full Wellie.


John Vanlandingham
 

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We have received ton of email from all of you over last few days.
I replyed to everyone that I got an email from. We will be going
over all the corespondence in our next meeting. We consider all
member input/sugestions extremly important.

thanks
-george plsek
 

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>My preference for maps vs other aids is as maps actually
>require a skill to use and interpret, and as SPORT are
>usually intended to contests of skill, reading a map, being
>a skill, fits the spirit of motorSPORT.

One more time I find myself in the uncomfotable position of agreeing with John on something.

Maps are not close to true pace notes, they are a graphical representation of the road. They give you some information that needs to be interpreted to the driver. Where is the information on crests? road surface? Water bars? I can go on.

They do take a certain level skill to use. I codrive because I enjoy the challenge and want to bring something to the car.

Maps should be a central part of blind rallying. Ask Carey Wright what he thinks of maps after running them for the first time at Doo-****. We (and a few other teams) will be doing the same thing at Dryad.

They are another tool, nothing more.

Dave
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Very true about them being a tool, however in my opinion
they violate the very Spirit of "blind rallying" that we
claim to have here. Or had.

I am familiar with maps, pace and course notes, and I
think they give the competitor with maps an
advantage over the folks with just a route book.
However like anything else it is a skill and requires
practise to be useful.

I am against the use of maps at ANY route-book-only
event. They should be treated as having pace notes.

At an event where course notes are available, or pace
noting and recce done please feel free to use a map. ;)
The playing field there would be much more even.

I also feel the "map issue" has been rather poorly
handled so far with the corrections that continue to
come from the PRB only muddying the issue more.
I think the current wording is hopeless and allows
me to use public satelite imaging to make PERFECT maps
of almost any stage at this point.

Are we or are we not doing blind rallys? Well aparently
"not anymore" is the answer from what I see from the PRB.

Perhaps they should have asked the membership what THEY
thought on this issue? (And NOT the manufacturers)
Instead of just going it alone as they appear to have
last year when this came up.

Ed
 

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RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

I enjoy blind rallying, I love the challenge of it to both the driver and codriver.

But maps are not pace notes, not even close if you have used map on stage you have seen that. Yes they give you an advantage, a more skilled or experienced codriver should be able to give you an advantage.

Maps are just one tool. I want to use my skills and bring something into the car that increases our competitiveness.

Maps have been around forever, they have been used by some people in the US for a long time. Maybe not widely used but certainly used. I'm sure John Van Landingham will chirp in about the using Capital forest maps years ago

One other question, who ever said the playing field was level? Yes I know it should be, every team obeys the same rule book. But every team (and remember this is still a team sport) try's to find advantages, spends more money, or uses the gray areas to gain an advantage.

Maps are not a gray area. They are legal, and more importantly, have always been legal. To talk of them violating the "spirit" of blind rallying is ridiculous. They are fundamental to the history of blind rallying.

Dave
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

Maps are legal? Ignoring the 2002 rule book, where has this ever been published before?

Let me give you a little history here. Last year, during the broadcast of Rim (I think it was Rim...) Tim Winker pointed out that Lovell's co-driver was using maps and said, "Maps are legal." Now this got me thinking, so I grabbed my rule book and looked for where it said maps were legal.

So then I wrote the PRB, asking them if maps were legal. I quoted some stuff from the rule book about pace notes and about how you get a route book and that's it. Sure looked to me that maps were not legal since the rule book never said they were.

Just because it isn't written down doesn't mean it's legal. What if I had video of last year's course playing in the car while we were driving? That's not in the rule book! (Well, OK, now I think it is, but only because I used that example in arguing to the PRB that exclusion from the rule book doesn't mean it's OK to do something...)

Now, why would you say that maps are in the spirit of blind rally? Blind rally to me means that everyone is given a route book and you drive what you see. And since maps are not provided by the organizers, a competitor that uses maps goes out and gets additional information not offered to other competitors and uses that to get MORE information than what is in the route book.

I guess you view blind rally as meaning the competitor hasn't done recce and I guess I see it as organizer provided information that levels the playing field.
 

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RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

I think the fact that it is not in the rule book DOES imply that it is legal. The rule book is exactly that, a book of rules. if it's not in the rulebook, how can it be "against the rules" and therefore illegal? If someone comes up with a better way of doing things and gains a competitive advantage, they get to run with that advantage until there is a rule created that levels the playing field again, or the rest of the field catches on and they loose the "advantage". This is what makes the sport evolve (innovation that is, not finding loopholes in the rules). Hopefully the innovations are not ruled out unless they create an unobtainable or insurmountable advantage for the majority of the competitors (majority refering to the number of competitors themselves, not the number of dollars they spend). you can purchase 7.5 minute USGS topo maps (pretty high detail) for an entire state for about $90 and they come on CD for your to print and share with your friends... (teams could share the price to further reduce cost).
 

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400 flat to crest
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RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

Daphne, remember Dave Kean is a Pommie basta... er Englisch. And since time, began organisers in Pommieland, er Englanti have supplied _in the regs_ not the maps themselves but they state 'the event will be on maps blah blah and blah blah and ....' this refers to the Ordanance Survey map and you better get them.

The co driver will get these and then prior, when signed in and getting the numbers, and the event stickers and the route book,will set to work and start to plot out from MAP REFERENCES given in the supps, the transits, service etc.

I didn't pay much attention when I've been to normal regional events in Sweden, I was too busy starting at all the really rad beeechin cars, but I think you can use maps there, too.

The French and Italian magazines I read give you detailed maps that are nearly as good as the Ordanance Survey maps (which are generall acknowledged in the trade as the best maps in the world, see them poms can do something right, eh Dave?)right in the magazine weeks before, so from that we can assume that the co-drivers, co-equipipage, et la co-pilotes all have the information. I got regs for Monte Carlo 93 and they did supply Maps.

This is just a small example of how we in the US are, and have been forever just a little out of step with the way the rest of the known world has always done rally. (another is the bizarre wierd ass Minutes and hundredths, can't even say hundredthsssses!)

And all reasonable rules, or laws or codes must, to be workable attempt to say what is prohibited. Listing what is allowed is in essence absurd. Everything is allowed EXCEPT the following.....is far more workable.

Of course the confusion over this in the PRB might just stem from their shall we say deeper knowledge of the way it's done in the 'merkun way, rather than more sinister reasons.*

And here in the NW I have often whacked my co-driver over the head with the famous Jamie bat for not refering to the Map usually supplied on the first page of the route book or the supps. they give up maps for service crew too.




*at the first Cabinet meeting in Churchills government after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor 7 Dec 1941, a cabinet minister said
"Thank God the Americans are in the war now; they can always be relied upon to do the right thing!"

Churchill is recorded to have muttered "After they have tried everything else.."











John Vanlandingham
 

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I'm still curious to see resolution to the question of: making notes in the route book based on maps supplied by the organizers at the event (such as the stage maps in the STPR route book). Rule book implies this is illegal but also implies it is legal since it is organizer supplied. Hmmm.
 

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RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

Does a competitor with maps have information that is not available to any other competitor? The answer there is no. Yes, you have more information, but it is not information anyone else can't find.

That is my fundamental point.

I put in a little more work, talk to the organizers, and visit the map store. I take co driving as seriously as a driver takes their role. It is preparation for a rally.

I have a rule book from 1999 here, no where does it state "you get a route book and that's it", it says what should be in the route book and that pace notes are illegal. It does not mention maps or any other material specifically as legal or illegal.

I don't buy the "if the rule book does not explicitly say it then it is illegal" argument. You can make these sorts of arguments all day long. Those that look for advantages in the omissions or gray areas can find them. The rule book would look like "War and peace" and come with a hole drilled in it so you could bolt it down use it as ballast.

I come from a culture of blind rallying, where maps and using maps are part of the role of a co driver on stage. They allow me to be less of a passenger and make a contribution to the competitiveness. Look at the history of stage rallying, the evolution from fast road rally to stage rally and maps feature very prominently. 12 years ago there was no pace note rallies in England, even the RAC was blind.

I dislike that money can gain advantages in this sport, but lets face it, that is racing. Using the skill you gain over time can helps level the playing field, I find it difficult to understand why people are against it

Dave
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

First of all, listing everything that is illegal is hardly practicle or feasible. There will always be something new that the rules do not take into account. So, instead of creating a list of things that are legal or illegal, we have guiding principals.

I don't have my old rule book handy, but I can assure you that the legality of maps was in conflict with other rules regarding route books and pace notes.

You know, there is nothing in the rule book that says I can't hire a copter to fly a few hundred yards in front of me and tell me exactly what the road is doing...or to project an image of the road surface to a screen in my car. Does that make it legal? Heck no! Goes against the spirit of rally.

To be honest, by biggest objection to maps is that the rules around them are not solid. Have we defined what a map is? Have we defined valid sources for these maps?

Frankly, I like what John V has said about supps naming the exact maps that are valid for the rally. At least that legislates it a bit.
 

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RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

>To be honest, by biggest objection to maps is that the rules
>around them are not solid. Have we defined what a map is?
>Have we defined valid sources for these maps?
>
>Frankly, I like what John V has said about supps naming the
>exact maps that are valid for the rally. At least that
>legislates it a bit.

I could live with that, but I would expect all organizers to have to include the information on which USGS (or other maps, but at a minimum the USGS maps) 7.5' maps would be applicable, that would save me a phonecall and some other work.

Yes it would be another burden to the organisers, but it would help make the inforamtion available and hopefully encourage codrivers to try it.

Dave
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RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

Maybe they're against it because it seems to be a very intense skill that is not easy to accomplish and could take quite a while (if at all) for some people to master (at least that's my initial feeling).
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

Look carefully through the book. You will find references to blind rally and statements that say you can't add additional information ot the organizer supplied information.

To me, this means no maps, computer devices, etc.

My point is, if it's blind rally, don't allow anything not provided by the organizers. If it's not, then anything goes.
 

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RE: Rule Book Changes and maps

>Look carefully through the book. You will find references
>to blind rally and statements that say you can't add
>additional information ot the organizer supplied
>information.
>
>To me, this means no maps, computer devices, etc.

This discussion of whether something not being mentioned in the rulebook means that it is implicitly allowed or not is really a moot point - maps ARE specifically allowed under the rules:

From the Performance Rally Rulebook, Article 7 - Event Operations:
7.1.D (Excerpt): "...Any map that is commercially available to the general public may be used. And (sic) additional markings on such map are restricted to official information issued by the organizers of the event, except they may not include the information provided in the official Stage Notes. Any other markings on the map will be deemed to be Pace Notes."

To me, that clears up a lot of the confusion about what's allowed and what's not in terms of maps. Of course, this is only my opinion - you'd probably be advised to get the official interpretation before you rely on it.

Here's my take, according to the rules as they are now:
- Using a map from the local gas station: okay.
- Using a USGS map avaiable to anyone, purchased off a web site: okay.
- Hiring a survey party to come in, survey the stage and keep the information to yourself: not okay.
- Using a USGS map with your own notes about the severity of every turn, based on what you read off the map: not okay.

As for whether maps SHOULD be legal, well, that's a whole different question. I'm in favour of it, but I can see the argument for the other side, too.

Jeff Hagan
 
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