[haztoys]

A long long time ago. The Euro's started this sport. With Gravel, Tarmac, Snow and Rough Rallys ??? Right? Right!!

I read that WRC may axe Tarmac??

The rough rallys in the USA get a Lot of crying and Drivers upset. And get cut from Pro Rally ?

We get a Tarmac Rally in SoCal and I read here That a few do not want a Tarmac Rally.

Heres what I'm asking
Is there room for all forms of Rally in the USA?? Gravel, Tarmac, Snow, Rough!!!

 

[jandreini]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

 

[rally7]

I sincerely hope so. The whole reason that I got started in rally was because it's "Real Cars on Real Roads Going Real Fast" NOT real cars on dirt roads or custom cars on race tracks but a form of racing that relates to real world driving.

I always thought that the really cool thing about rally is that you have to be good everywhere, on all surfaces under all conditions.

Dirt/gravel is offroad racing, tarmac is road racing, all othe the above is rally.

 

[Rich Smith]

Another part of rally tradition is a great "variety" of cars, with innovation being required to press-on through adverse road conditions.

The opposite of Track Racing or Stadium Spectacles.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"

 

[Lancia037Rally]

Snow in ProRally

> Heres what I'm asking
> Is there room for all forms of Rally in the USA?? Gravel,
>Tarmac, Snow, Rough!!!

The USA lacks a 'real' snow ProRally. Sure, there may be some snow at SnoDrift or LSPR, but usually not very much. The Canadians laugh at SnoDrift's name. Remember the Sprongls winning there last year in a 'retired' car. With the ommision of Rallye de Quebec from the 2004 calandar, PerceNeige remains as the only 'true' snowrally in NA. Then you have Charlevoix, Tall Pines, Rocky Mtn and even Bighorn where you can expect some of the white slippery stuff.

Would like to see Maine Summer ProRally become Maine Winter ProRally or better yet, run them both as ProRallies.

Snow rallies are safer. Speeds are slower and there are soft snowbanks rather than trees to crash into. And driving skill is the key factor, not horsepower.

 

[Adrian Wintle]

RE: Snow in ProRally

>> Heres what I'm asking
>> Is there room for all forms of Rally in the USA?? Gravel,
>>Tarmac, Snow, Rough!!!
>
>The USA lacks a 'real' snow ProRally. Sure, there may be
>some snow at SnoDrift or LSPR, but usually not very much.
>The Canadians laugh at SnoDrift's name.

The ones who've done it when it was snowy/icy don't.

>Remember the
>Sprongls winning there last year in a 'retired' car. With
>the ommision of Rallye de Quebec from the 2004 calandar,
>PerceNeige remains as the only 'true' snowrally in NA.

If there is a good winter, Sno*Drift can have just as much snow as PN. So can Pines, but without the benefits of snowbanks.

>Then
>you have Charlevoix, Tall Pines, Rocky Mtn and even Bighorn
>where you can expect some of the white slippery stuff.

And LSPR.

>Would like to see Maine Summer ProRally become Maine Winter
>ProRally or better yet, run them both as ProRallies.
>
>Snow rallies are safer. Speeds are slower and there are soft
>snowbanks rather than trees to crash into. And driving skill
>is the key factor, not horsepower.

Ask Barry Latreille or Tom McGeer about the Perce Neiges stages on the Petawawa base before you make generalizations about snow rallies being slower or safer...

Adrian

 

[perodi]

Bill,

I wouldn't call rallying on gravel an "off road" event.
I'd call it rallying on a gravel ROAD. If you see the
conditions that off road events are run over, you will
understand how smooth and fast our gravel rally roads
are. An average rally car wouldn't last more than a
few miles at a true off road event. That is a different
sport and shouldn't be mixed/confused with rallying.

My $0.02,
Patrick

 

[Andrew Comrie Picard]

Real Roads

I love snow. I love gravel. I love tarmac. I love having them all in the same rally. I HATE having gravel and tarmac on the same stage, or in the same loop between services. Rally drivers should be asked to drive in any conditions. They just shouldn't be asked to race on tarmac on gravel tires. 300 yards of tarmac connecting two gravel roads is fine - multiple kilometers of tarmac is not.

Oh - even worse is the unbelievable prospect of a tarmac superspecial with no service after or before a snow stage, as happened as Quebec this year. Thankfully it snowed in town hours before, but otherwise $800 of Michelin C5s would have been written off in under a minute, for each of the leading teams. I guess organizers don't drive 300hp cars on 4 inch wide tires in anger on tarmac very often? It's expensive. You need a tire service.

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.

 

[Lancia037Rally]

RE: Snow in ProRally

>If there is a good winter, Sno*Drift can have just as much
>snow as PN. So can Pines, but without the benefits of
>snowbanks.

Snowbanks are what I'm talking here. PN in places resembles a bobsled course for cars.

>Ask Barry Latreille or Tom McGeer about the Perce Neiges
>stages on the Petawawa base before you make generalizations
>about snow rallies being slower or safer...

And you don't think they would have been going faster if they had been on gravel?

 

[Guest]

RE: Real Roads

>...$800 of Michelin C5s would
>have been written off in under a minute, for each of the
>leading teams. I guess organizers don't drive 300hp cars on
>4 inch wide tires in anger on tarmac very often? It's
>expensive. You need a tire service.


I have a difficult time feeling sorry for anyone
with a high horsepower all wheel drive rally car.

Racing is expensive. How fast you can go depends
on how deep your wallet is.

If you can't afford to burn up a set of tires on
one stage you have options:

1. Run street tires
2. Reduce your horsepower
3. Slow down
4. Run wider tires
etc

Rallying is about endurance... well, anyway it used to be.
Now it is only about how much money you can spend
to sprint about the forest for a few daylight hours.

 

[Adrian Wintle]

RE: Snow in ProRally

>>If there is a good winter, Sno*Drift can have just as much
>>snow as PN. So can Pines, but without the benefits of
>>snowbanks.
>
>Snowbanks are what I'm talking here. PN in places resembles
>a bobsled course for cars.

Sno*Drift was like that 2 of the three times I ran it. In 2000 there wasn't a lot of difference between the conditions at SD and those at PN. In 2001 the SD snowbanks were a little smaller. You want a bobsled course, try the stage on Henry Joy's property.

>>Ask Barry Latreille or Tom McGeer about the Perce Neiges
>>stages on the Petawawa base before you make generalizations
>>about snow rallies being slower or safer...
>
>And you don't think they would have been going faster if
>they had been on gravel?

How much faster than flat in 5th can you go? Those roads wouldn't have been run as gravel stages.

Adrian

 

[Lancia037Rally]

RE: Snow in ProRally

> You want a bobsled course, try the stage on
>Henry Joy's property.

Been there, done that.

>Those roads
>wouldn't have been run as gravel stages.

Its a given that if a rallymaster wants to include superhighways for stageroads, its going to be fast and less safe regardless of road surface.

 

[Foghorn]

RE: Snow in ProRally

>How much faster than flat in 5th can you go? Those roads
>wouldn't have been run as gravel stages.
>
>Adrian

I guess I'm confused. I don't know the roads you are talking about but I think I understand your point to be that the roads were extremely fast even on snow. However, if competitors could go flat in 5th on the snow, how could the roads be less safe if they were gravel instead?

Kent Gardam

 

[Adrian Wintle]

RE: Snow in ProRally

>>How much faster than flat in 5th can you go? Those roads
>>wouldn't have been run as gravel stages.
>
>I guess I'm confused. I don't know the roads you are
>talking about but I think I understand your point to be that
>the roads were extremely fast even on snow. However, if
>competitors could go flat in 5th on the snow, how could the
>roads be less safe if they were gravel instead?

I was addressing Dave's generalization that snow rallies are safer because they are slower. In my experience, that is not necessarily the case. The trees are still close to the road - our crash at Sno*Drift in 2002 would still have been a hard hit if there were big snowbanks, since the tree was right at the edge of the road (based on the geometry, it might have been worse if there were showbanks).

Compared to a gravel rally on the same roads, it is likely that a snow rally with plowed roads (i.e. snowbanks) would be slower and safer, but only Maine Winter (and Pines when Black Bear ran on the same roads) actually use the same roads as a gravel rally (does Maine have plowed roads? The Pines roads I'm thinking of don't get plowed). The roads that can be used for a winter rally tend to be different since you usually have to use roads that would normally be plowed throughout the winter. These are likely roads that would be quite fast (possibly too fast) when there isn't snow on them. The little trails don't tend to get plowed - you probably saw the 'no winter maintenance' sighns on a bunch of the Cadillac stages - and you aren't going to run a plow through there just for the rally. If you have the depth of snow for reasonable snowbanks you probably couldn't plow it in one shot.

Adrian

 

[jandreini]

I refer everyone to rally-live. FIA recently announced the 2004 WRC rule changes. Seems like there is no longer any difference between rally and circuit racing. Practice in the morning, race in the afternoon.

For those who think they've seen fast stages, I give you the late Reno International Rally. One stage was 17.5 miles long. Winning average was a tad over 120 mph!

 

[Pete Kuncis]

RE: Snow in ProRally

>does Maine have plowed roads?

Out of the 3 diff't roads used for the Maine Winter event, 2 of them were plowed (stages 1 & 4 and stages 2 & 5). Stage 3 wasn't plowed.

Pete

 

[AlanPerry]

RE: Snow in ProRally

Exactly what constitutes a snow event? Packed snow? Snow on ice? Snow that can be ground through to get to gravel?

Since we can't run studded tires, aren't our snow rallies necessarily different from the Scandanavian ones?

I thought Sno*Drift 2003 lived up to its name, particularly in the afternoon on the second day. Last year, Rocky Mountain turned into a snow rally. Kananaskis was pretty snowy too.

alan

 

[Widget Codriver]

RE: Snow in Pro Rally (space added in name)

Ramada Express International Rally has been a pretty serious snow rally in some years (ask the Sprongls in '98) and more traditionally challenging in others (last year).

Check it out at www.RallyUSA.com.

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com

 

[rallyfreak]

Give me it all. Sure I'm not a fan of car breaker stages, but that's part of the skill set needed in a rally driver - know when to push it and when to hold a little in reserve.

I do agree with setting up the schedule so you have time to put tarmac tires on for tarmac stages, then another service to switch back to gravel tires for gravel. If it absolutely had to be done, then I guess I'd run unmodified Hakkas or something that would hold up to some abuse on pavement.

Again, real cars, on real roads, going real fast....

Steve Baumbach

 

[Kevin Hawkinson]

RE: Real Roads

Whoa, wait a minute!
Just because a person runs an Open class car in "Pro" doesn't mean that they have an extra $800 to throw away, on top of the few thousand dollars that it takes to just START the event.
I wouldn't wish that on anyone, even if I do envy their car.