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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
All AWD forced induction cars (National and Regional) will have their restrictors checked at pre-event tech at sno*drift.

All AWD forced induction cars must have the proper restrictor installed per article 10 of the 2005 Rally-America rules, and are subject to inspection at any time during the event.

The restricors of AWD forced induction podium finishers, class winners, and at least one other AWD forced induction finisher chosen at random will be inspected at impound following the event.
 

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Excellent. This definitely needs to happen to weed out cheaters. We need this at regional rallies as well. I've heard about cheating on restrictors from a couple of reliable sources. Random checks mid-event wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
> We need this at regional rallies as well. >

We are making extra sets of inpection tools for loan and use at regional events.
 

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slow is slow....
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>This definitely needs to happen to weed out
>cheaters. I've heard about cheating on restrictors from a couple of >reliable sources.>

Yes...weed out cheaters and stifle the nay sayers for some!!!! People are going to have to come up with other excuses for getting beat by a slow PGT car??

Andrew
 

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Mike:

Has RA considered sealing the turbos on each car after they are initially inspected, as is done in Canada?

Then, during the event, you only have to check the seal.

Also, if the seal remains valid at the next rally, inpsection and measurement are not required.

Turbo restrictor size cheating has not been an issue in Canada (that I know of). Is it a real problem or a perceived problem in the USA?

Doug Woods
 

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"Go fast then bah bah bah"
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So Mike-

there was a disucssion between J.B. and Doug with the CARS tech people the RA will accept the CARS sealed turbos. They put a serial numbered band on them and note that number in the log book. My understanding is that this was agreed upon. Can you confirm or deny this?

-Tim
Wazoo Racing
 

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Loose nut behind the wheel
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>there was a disucssion between J.B. and Doug with the CARS
>tech people the RA will accept the CARS sealed turbos. They
>put a serial numbered band on them and note that number in the
>log book. My understanding is that this was agreed upon. Can
>you confirm or deny this?

I for one do not think this is by any means reliable. It would be very easy to remove the intake scroll from the turbo between events and have the restrictor machined open with the seal in place. The only real means of checking restrictors is during the event.
 

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>I for one do not think this is by any means reliable. It
>would be very easy to remove the intake scroll from the turbo
>between events and have the restrictor machined open with the
>seal in place.

The CARS seals are specifically designed to break when disturbed. I have had several break while being attached or being checked. They are generally wired through attachment bolts so that any disassembly of the turbo breaks the seal or the seal wire. They aren't as easy to get around as you suggest.

The presence of a seal doesn't mean that the scrutineer can't also check the restrictor at the event. Remember that on some production GT cars, disassembling the intake to the point where you can measure the restrictor can easily take 30 minutes. How many days are set aside for scrutineering?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
>Mike:
>
>Has RA considered sealing the turbos on each car after they
>are initially inspected, as is done in Canada?
>
>Then, during the event, you only have to check the seal.
>
>Also, if the seal remains valid at the next rally, inpsection
>and measurement are not required.
>
>Turbo restrictor size cheating has not been an issue in Canada
>(that I know of). Is it a real problem or a perceived problem
>in the USA?
>
>Doug Woods

R-A will have it's own seals, inspections may include both a visual check of the seal and physical inspection of the restrictor.

Having an unbroken CARS or R-A seal will not excuse the competitor from a physical inspection when requested.
 

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L3> over crest, drops!
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Please check my restrictor, it's such a well machined, pretty, bit that nobody gets to see and appreciate..:D It'll only take about 5 minutes or less to check it, not 30+.

Won't be at Sno*Drift, but should be at 100AW..:)
 

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"Go fast then bah bah bah"
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Having a restrictor sealed doesn't necessarily eliminate the need to have spot checks occur during the event. Your right you can take the intake scroll off and have that milled out but why go through that trouble - just get a spare turbo with no restrictor and after the tech is done or at the next long service swap them and then put the restricted turbo back in before the finish - that's not the easiest with US Spec WRX's but I don't know how hard it would be with other car's.

To Paul's point the benefit of having it sealed is to make scrutineering go quicker. If the inspectors have the go/no go gauge that Doug Robinson had last year well then by all means check them. It snakes right up the intake and takes 3 minutes. But I don't know if all of the regional tech inspectors have them and and you know as well as I do - pulling apart a US Spec WRX intake to gauge the restrictor ties up a bay for 30 minutes.

Having a sealed turbo may be a non-issue at national events since most likely all of the gee-whiz borescopes and gauges will be there (that me be an assumption on my part with the SCCA withdrawing and according to Doug they owned that stuff) but it can be the difference between waiting in a long line at tech as 6 US Spec WRX's have to have their intake's pulled apart at a regional event.

-Tim
Wazoo Racing
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
>
>To Paul's point the benefit of having it sealed is to make
>scrutineering go quicker. If the inspectors have the go/no go
>gauge that Doug Robinson had last year well then by all means
>check them. It snakes right up the intake and takes 3 minutes.
>But I don't know if all of the regional tech inspectors have
>them and and you know as well as I do - pulling apart a US
>Spec WRX intake to gauge the restrictor ties up a bay for 30
>minutes.
>

>
>-Tim
>Wazoo Racing

We have inspection tools similar to what Doug R. had, and we are making extra sets so they can be available at regional events too.

All competitors or crew presenting the car for tech should be competent to access the restrictor in a timely manner.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
>So Mike-
>
>there was a disucssion between J.B. and Doug with the CARS
>tech people the RA will accept the CARS sealed turbos. They
>put a serial numbered band on them and note that number in the
>log book. My understanding is that this was agreed upon. Can
>you confirm or deny this?
>
>-Tim
>Wazoo Racing

There is no agreement I know of concerning this. (just got off the phone with Mr. Niday / Mr. Havir)

CARS competitors, like all others, should expect that the restrictors will be physically inspected at pre-event tech, and post event impound, both visual inpection of seals and physical inspection of the restrictor can occur during the event.

Seals will be used to facilitate a quick check at observation controls, ATCs or FTCs, and not as a substitute for inspection of the restrictor when warrented.
 

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SURF!!! I'll cover you myself!
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I bought a restrictor from someone and it was 34.5mm cold, so look out, and double check it yourself before the event, cover yo ass.


Is RA going to use the same method as SCCA did for restrictor varification? If so, I really think we should look at an alternitive way, that is accurate.


Peter
 

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heh if you guys were really serious you could even try to do this WITHOUT telling anyone !

then you would catch the supposed 'cheaters'

since it sounds to me very obvious that you haven't seen/used the seals it would be beneficial to see a proper seal

they are used WORLDWIDE to proven effect

but I'm not harshing on you just saying hat just becuase no one has shown you a decent one doesn't mean a decent one exists. The cars ones are ok.

p.s. Doug's tool is problematic from the perspective that it does NOT measure distance from the turbo inlet, which is a 'cheater' mod that cannot be found by doug's tool

p.s. do it with scales too, and dont give the cheaters any time to get remedied in advance
 

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>p.s. Doug's tool is problematic from the perspective that it
>does NOT measure distance from the turbo inlet, which is a
>'cheater' mod that cannot be found by doug's tool.

Right, "hands in pocket scrutineering", they stick the thing in the long curved intake pipe not knowing if it was hitting the restrictor, or the actual turbine wheel, swell.

Also, the one SCCA go/no-go gauge I saw was square, so a guy could make a CNC resty with a octagon shape on the ID, the gauge would not go through but the surface area could be several % over a round 40mm. Smokey would be proud!!!

On another note, I have an old open class evo shell in the shop, I counted 14 pro rallys >AFTER< it was entered into the log book that the belts were outdated in 2000 at Wild West. 14 pro events, and 4 heavy rolls, same expired belts, this was the detail in which SCCA checked safty. I hope this changes.

When I go to BC Canada for rally events, the strutineers have FAR less experiance, but provided far more detailed and knowledgeable work. They wanted to see the turbo/restrictor off the car to inspect, and seal. They actually took the effort to bend over and read the belt date tags!!!


peter
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
>p.s. Doug's >tool is problematic from the perspective that
>it
>>does NOT measure distance from the turbo inlet, which is a
>>'cheater' mod that cannot be found by doug's tool.
>
>Right, "hands in pocket scrutineering", they stick the thing
>in the long curved intake pipe not knowing if it was hitting
>the restrictor, or the actual turbine wheel, swell.

If that's "hands in the pockets" scruiteneering, then what is checking the restrictor by looking at an 8 month old tag?

>Also, the one SCCA go/no-go gauge I saw was square, so a guy
>could make a CNC resty with a octagon shape on the ID, the
>gauge would not go through but the surface area could be
>several % over a round 40mm. Smokey would be proud!!!
>
>
Our checkers are oval.

The rules state the restrictor opening must be round. We also use a bore scope to inpect the restrictor, if through the bore scope, the shape of the restrictor appears suspicious, or too far from the impeller, the intake tract will be disassembled.
 
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