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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anyone know if it would be possible to do reseeds during an event according to a speed factor for the event?

Instead of the system now where if for example
A driver is running top 15 and has an off on day 1 that loses him 10 min. After the reseed he drops down to 25th when really all his stages times for that first day say he should be in the top 15(granted that he didn't go off). Unless you are really lucky and the org. over look the fact that you had an off and put you where you should be.

Now maybe they do this(event speedfactor).... but it didn't really seem like it. If they did - it was to select participants. One in particular had really great stage times but had two trips into a snowbank that cost him major time. But he was still seeded for day two incredibly higher than where he was overall. Can there be some type of unbias favoritism???

Just a thought I don't mean to complain or anything... We use speedfactor to determine starting order for day 1. Why can't we use a speedfactor (from the event only - as in drop fastest and slowest stage times - take an ave. that's your start order) for day 2? Heck it really might not even make that much of a difference in comparision to overall - but it gives a little justice to those who went a little to fast in one spot but got out okay and were doing well before and after that.
Kyle
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

I like this idea. I think it could be quick, easy, and indesputable. However it does have its catches. There would have to be sufficient time between stages/legs for it to work. Perhaps during a long service/lunchbreak or even overnight to allow for the later cars coming in to be treated equally.
As far as figuring out the actual restart order it would be simple; just figure out event-so-far speed factors and use that number.
What does rally america use to keep track of stage times? Perhaps their program would be suitable, if not Excel or Access would work fine.

What would keep a system like this from being implemented? I don't know much about what goes on behind the scenes in the rally america van but I think a spreadsheet/program could be made so that it could pump out a restart order just as fast as times come in.

Just somethin' to chew on eh.

-Matt
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

This is already done but....


It is important to bring individual situatiions to the attention of timing and scoring or the event steward. Times will be reviewed but not everyone's individual stage results will be looked at and compared, so if you have an unusual off make sure the right people know.

Mike
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

I know this is more work but I think it has some merit.

It would be neat to see this become standard practice. Assuming a bit of work goes into doing a reseed anyway how much harder would it be to calculate event speedfactors?
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

I beg to differ with the suggestion......

Since the event itself is scored on "stroke play" rather than "match play" rules, reseeds should be based on overall standing.

The point of reseeding is to get the cars running in a road order that approximates the overall finishing order. Reseeding based on speed factor will not do this.

Some drivers take a measured approach to events, driving fast only when appropriate or necessary. They adjust their pace based on the conditions and their competition's total score. Maybe they only go fast on the longest stages and "sandbag" on others. A reseed based on speed factor would sometimes punish this "good" behavior while rewarding the "bad" behavior of poor car preparation or driving.

So its overall postion that makes sense, with the event steward there to adjust any obvious unsafe situations.

But the adjustment should only be enough to remove the unsafe condition -- to do more would again reward a team that had not done their preparation or driving well.
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

>
>Since the event itself is scored on "stroke play" rather
>than "match play" rules, reseeds should be based on overall
>standing.
>

Just in case there is any misunderstanding...

This is in regard to an event speedfactor, not a normal speedfactor. This corresponds with the "stroke play" idea that Doug brought up and actually betters it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

If this is already done who's scores are looked at without notification of a significant off?

Basically what I'm asking for is an unbias reseed order.
I didn't want to name names but here is what I was upset with-
Travis Pastrana was flying on the stages that he stayed on the road
ss1 2:20 ss2 5:50 ss3 2:52 ss4 29:26 ss5 2:53 ss617:46.9 ss7 10:49
But he had two offs that cost him some time but was reseeded way higher than his overall time was. Now the next guy in the overall finish order had these times
Jake Himes
ss1 2:36 ss2 6:26 ss310:50 ss410:13 ss5 3:12 ss6 7:12 ss7 10:49

Now there overall times are
Travis pastrana 71:56 Started sat. 9th Overall finish 19th
Jake Himes 51:18 Started sat. 37th Overall finish 20th

Now that's a little screwed up don't you think One guy loses 10 postitions from sat. reseed while the other gains 17. Who do you really think deserved their times to be looked at? Everyone. Now with the system I'm asking for an event speedfactor we would have had this
Travis Pastrana leg 1 speedfactor .8
Jake Himes leg 1 speedfactor .86
If I had the time I'd come up with a start order... but as a pure guess it'd be something like jake 15th pastrana 35th.

Now I don't mean to cause a big revolt or anything but there was kind of a screw up there don't you think??? Jake had nearly 20 min. on Pastrana and started 28 cars behind him... All I want is for the reseeds to be unbias and fair... if you go off twice you really shouldn't be starting in the top 10 now should you??? Especially when you've lost 20 min. to a guy who is 28 cars behind you.

What is wrong with this system????
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

Kyle

Regarding Pastrana's reseed, I'm betting that his co driver Christian Edstrom made darn sure that the organizers were aware of the time they lost due to their offs. We could have done something similar but we didn't. That's why they were started way up and I was started according to my total cumulative time.

It's been a week or so since this thread started. As much as we like this idea I think we are the only ones.
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

I would invite anyone who has problems with reseeds or start orders to sit down with the steward(s) who do it and see what thought processes go into it. You'll find that the anomalies you see were adjusted for safety reasons. Sno*Drift is particularly difficult to do...somebody like Pastrana who goes fast, then stuffs for many minutes can't be safely left down in the pack where times put him. I would argue that recalculating the speed factors for the single event would frequently produce the same result, since only top and bottom times are discarded.

Start orders - and reseeds - aren't intended to strokee egos or even be fair (whatever that is) - they're for SAFETY. No amount of pure science or math will take care of all cases.

Bruce
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

Last I checked Bruce and the other stewards didn't bite. So if you have an issue with your reseed, go talk to them. These guys aren't omnipitent (sp?), so they don't always know that you had a spin or off on a certain stage that will affect your times. Asking them will not guarentee your reseed request, but not asking will guarentee you won't get it.

And Bruce is right, it's about safety, not egos. This is especially true at a rally like snodrift where the AWD cars have a huge advantage. Four years ago on the ranch stage I caught and passed 4 cars in 12 miles. Did I deserve to be in front of those four cars? No, I stuffed my car and they didn't. Should I have been? Yes, and those guys will agree. Getting passed costs you more time that road position.


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

>Last I checked Bruce and the other stewards didn't bite. So
>if you have an issue with your reseed, go talk to them.
>These guys aren't omnipitent (sp?), so they don't always
>know that you had a spin or off on a certain stage that will
>affect your times. Asking them will not guarentee your
>reseed request, but not asking will guarentee you won't get
>it.
>
>And Bruce is right, it's about safety, not egos. This is
>especially true at a rally like snodrift where the AWD cars
>have a huge advantage. Four years ago on the ranch stage I
>caught and passed 4 cars in 12 miles. Did I deserve to be in
>front of those four cars? No, I stuffed my car and they
>didn't. Should I have been? Yes, and those guys will
>agree. Getting passed costs you more time that road
>position.
>
>

And if you have a driver behind you thats just gonna catch you anyway... You want him in front of you. I'd rather not have to think about having to keep an eye out behind me because a 4wd with a determined driver and the returning #2 co-driver from last year were gonna catch me. When you get passed, you might have a side swipe or lose those expensive lights due to rocks flying over your hood.

Long time ago they put John Lane behind me (I think it was his 2nd or 3rd event). I politely asked them to move HIM past me, and suggested he might do better about 6 places further up than that. The organisers did that. Now if he could have gotten the National Steward to do the same at Wild West...
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

Back from Canada, and home from work, so I can post!

>Regarding Pastrana's reseed, I'm betting that his co driver
>Christian Edstrom made darn sure...

Reminder not to bet against Jake... check! We were started based on our stage scores excluding SS4 and SS6. On Friday night, starting 42nd, we had had to pass two cars on relatively short stages, which I don't relish doing, given the safety issues involved. From a safety perspective, our start on Saturday seemed reasonable -- we neither caught nor held up any cars on Saturday.

>We could
>have done something similar but we didn't. That's why they
>were started way up and I was started according to my total
>cumulative time.

Jake seems to have had an issue on SS3. If he'd mentioned that to the PRSM, he likely would have been started higher on the road on Saturday. BTW, Jake, nice drive!

>It's been a week or so since this thread started. As much
>as we like this idea I think we are the only ones.

I like it, and I'm all for it. That said, I don't think that starting by SpeedFactor is going to make much of a difference overall. I'd still have asked to exclude SS4 and SS6 from our SpeedFactor calculation, and then our SpeedFactor would have been .87 or .88 I think. So we would have started about where we did.

Cheers,
- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

Thanks for the reply-

I don't mean anything against what Travis did at all. He drove an excellent rally. It was just something that popped out at me... so much time lost and starting 9th.

I thought this idea could be a way for stewards to make their lives a little easier, rather than having to deal with going through the times - having people protest(which I realize you will always have because no system would be perfect)... all in all just a new way for things to be done that was "fair" and convinent.....

I'm actually thinking about asking to work at one of the next "local" rallys with the times just to see what all goes on there and compare it to what goes on outside the Rally-America van. Not to say they do a bad job at all - but I'm very eager to learn.

Again- I didn't mean to offend anyone just wanted to throw out an idea that seemed to make sense in my head that's spinning all the time.
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

>Again- I didn't mean to offend anyone just wanted to throw
>out an idea that seemed to make sense in my head that's
>spinning all the time.

Yeah, no worries, mate. As most of the folks on here can attest to, you'll have to work much harder to get my panties in a twist.

Besides, your idea has merit. The fact that we were a good example is neither here nor there.

Cheers,
- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr....

>I don't mean anything against what Travis did at all. He
>drove an excellent rally. It was just something that popped
>out at me... so much time lost and starting 9th.

It really doesn't matter. If David Higgins rolls his car and spends 20 minutes getting himself collected and back on the road, instead of starting him last, he should be put back near the front at the first opportunity...not having him pass multiple cars per stage. That's what's meant by "safety issue."

I know there were grumblings about where they put us on Sat. at LSPR after we rolled the car. We didn't even ASK...they just knew we had some bum stages and put us where we should be. We neither caught anyone or got caught. We were well positioned.
 

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Kyle & working

Kyle-

How about coming along with us to 100AW (you would just have to get to the lower peninsula)? We can pick you up on the way to Headwaters. I can definitely sign you up to work Cadillac.

Which one?

>
>I'm actually thinking about asking to work at one of the
>next "local" rallys with the times just to see what all goes
>on there and compare it to what goes on outside the
>Rally-America van. Not to say they do a bad job at all -
>but I'm very eager to learn.

press on,
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr

I'm going to play Devil's advocate here, and completely contradict my previous post. Please bear with me, as I'm just throwing out another possible viewpoint.

ACP stuffs his car at Snodrift and loses a bunch of time. He is effectively out of the chase at this point, but wishes to continue for fun and seat time. The stewards reseed according to his clean stage times, and he is put in front of us. At this point we are still within possible striking distance of the leaders. No big deal until ACP stuffs it again saturday afternoon. Lets say for this argument the ACP is blocking the road (in reality he was well off and safely located). Now force majuere is causing me to lose time to the leaders, and the person causing the time loss isn't really even competing at this point.

I could accept force majuere from someone who was competing, but slotting in someone who has lost of bunch of time could open the door to hanky panky. Say a manufacturer has one car act as a "blocker" while his teamate pulls away??

Like I said, I'm just throwing this out, and I don't have a solution. It's hypothetical, and probably unrealistic, but interesting nonetheless. Thoughts...?

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845

Ps. Sorry Andrew, no offense intended. You just happen to be really convenient to explain my thought, but I know you would never do anyting to hold anybody up.
 

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RE: Reseeds at events using an event Spdfctr

Isn't Force Majeur French for Tough Sh.t?

I'm not sure there is a solution for every situation possible that could make every team Happy.

Pretty Much anything Doug Shepard says should be looked at hard. He's got as much experience as anyone except perhaps JB himself or Paul C in the history of American Rallying.

The order is entirely about Safety and nothing else.
 

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RE: Let's start again

>I would invite anyone who has problems with reseeds or start
>orders to sit down with the steward(s) who do it and see
>what thought processes go into it. You'll find that the
>anomalies you see were adjusted for safety reasons.
>Sno*Drift is particularly difficult to do...somebody like
>Pastrana who goes fast, then stuffs for many minutes can't
>be safely left down in the pack where times put him. I
>would argue that recalculating the speed factors for the
>single event would frequently produce the same result, since
>only top and bottom times are discarded.
>
>Start orders - and reseeds - aren't intended to strokee egos
>or even be fair (whatever that is) - they're for SAFETY. No
>amount of pure science or math will take care of all cases.
>
>Bruce

I think that the entire point of this thread may have been miscommunicated. Before I get into the meat and potatoes all should know that I am in no way feeling any animosity but just want the discussion to evolve as was intended to. I feel this is a safety issue as well as one of fairness. I understand that organizers are both interested in being safe and fair.

Here is my best understanding of the system as it stands now. I feel the system is currently not uniformly applied to all competitors and could be better with maybe less work than is currently needed.

As Bruce said, much thought(work) is put into the reseeds. As Lurch said, his team was moved up without their asking at LSPR. As many others inferred, if you want to asure your proper repositioning, go talk to someone, otherwise you will slip through the cracks. As one can draw from the responses, currently teams that are not highly visible need to make sure that their story is heard or they will be overlooked. There are errors with the current method that already takes a lot of time to produce it's result. I think we can all agree on that. Read on if you don't.

One year ago we started 2nd to last on the road for the Drift Clubrally of SnoDrift 03. We made up 14 road positions with no reseed over the course of that Saturday. Over the last 5 stages (legs 5 and 6) we were the 11th fastest car overall while running in the bottom 3rd of the road order. This was done behind 2 factory cars and 2 former British champions. Needless to say, as we were back in the order, we caught cars on every stage with their snow dust making visibility difficult and producing more danger than needed. This year we passed many cars on Saturday again and got stuck behind a few as well. After we cleared some traffic we could get clean runs but we lost a ton of time driving behind other cars.

What happens at S.D. is that our team is a huge safety risk because we are under that radar of whomover does start orders and reseeds. They have all the info. Bruce affirms that they spend a lot of time pouring over it. Why not take the human error out of it and instead of starting out with cummulative scores just run all the scores first according to the speedfactor forumula for the event, then make subjective, sensible changes. With this method, the computer will find the teams that are "under the radar".

SnoDrift is fun and I will be back next year if I'm still racing. Thanks to all involved.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
RE: Kyle & working

If you can gaurntee me a postion working with the times sign me up for Headwaters (sorry jake), as of right now the calander says I'm free - granted that nothing comes up with work or something else. I'm really interested to see what goes on with all that... now I know there isn't a reseed, at least if memory serves correct there isn't but maybe I can do one on the side for my own sake if time permits. I really would like to know if my idea would be possible- and the only way it seems I could do it would be to try.

Everyones comments are valuable to me - if they are to others I don't really know - but I don't feel it's "fair" for some teams to be overlooked when Saftey is the reason reseeds are done the way they are done. Shouldn't everyone's saftey be looked at not just those who are in the top 10? Jake brought up a good point... was it safe that he was put so low on the starting order two years in a row?

Kyle
 
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