[hilmera]

Jimmy Brandt writes, in the thread about the Oregon Trail incident:
> - read your rules. This is a case of a red cross - procedures are
> defined, you can NOT "undo" a red cross. This is NOT force majeure.

You make a good point. The real question then becomes how to react to a non-medical situation to stop a stage, resolve a situation, and restart it. In the past the car that notices a non-medical problem stops at a radio-equipped control (spectator, ham location, stop control etc.) to inform the stage of the problem. Starts are halted, the situation is resolved, the stage is cleared by an advance car if necessary, and starts are resumed.

There are problems in response time and situation control with this system that the red cross is meant to address. If a problem is immediate enough that it cannot wait, the red cross is thrown and the stage is stopped and thrown. "Red flagged" as it were. Using the red cross causes problems that have been addressed before ad nauseaum. For the folks that have forgotten or weren't paying attention before, using the red cross for non-medical situations: [ul] [li] dilutes the immediate, clear meaning of the red cross to designate a medical emergency [/li] [li] as such, it could cause delayed EMS response in an actual emergency [/li] [li] as such, it may technically be illegal, as in fines-and-lawsuits illegal [/li] [li] it terminates the possibility of restarting a stage (Mike Nagle's main beef, in the case of Oregon Trail) [/li] [li] it gets everyone really upset over nothing -- "The stage has been stopped -- oh okay, I'll wait." versus "Somebody threw the red cross! Woe! Woe!" [/li] [/ul]

Stopping a stage, fixing a problem, and restarting it is not an uncommon thing, or at least it didn't use to be.

The rule allowing non-medical use of the red cross should be immediately struck. If the PRB wants to create a procedure to allow a competitor to stop a stage for a potential safety problem with a restart to determined later, then we should come up with something else.

My suggestion is that routebooks carry: [ul] [li] the red cross, which brings the EMS a-runnin' and throws the stage, with severe penalties for improper use [/li] [li] the OK sign, with moderate penalties for not displaying it for the next five to ten cars -- everyone starting after that should have been informed of the stationary car, but three cars is too few [/li] [li] a flourescent yellow card, for use to stop a stage, with heavy penalty for misuse, but guaranteed assigned times for affected competitors if they leave the stage under power [/li] [/ul]

This would provide the desired functionality of giving competitors the ability to stop a stage, but doesn't screw up the importance of the red cross. It may be appropriate to have a red card as well to indicate a fire, but my guess is in the event of a fire, the folks on-site would simply throw the whole routebook at the windshield of the next competitor, 52-pickup-style.

I'm going to cc the PRB. I encourage everyone to contact the PRB about changing the new red cross rule.

andy

 

[Trevor Donison]

I'm personally in favor of a Red Stop sign added to the back of the route book.

And have it treated exactly like the Red cross, rules and all. It would cover everything but a medical emergency. Medical emergencies would still be covered by the red cross.

Situations where stop sign would apply:

1) Car burning to the ground. I've seen this personally. I showed the red cross because I didn't have any other option and the stage was blocked. My car would have been first one hit around a blind corner. How bad would that be to have a car plow into the back of another car at speed?

2) Situation that occured at Oregon Trail.

3) Car blocking the stage, no possible way of getting around it. At Prescott 99 I believe the stage was blocked by a car and a tree that was broken off. The tree had been removed, and we were barely able to get by the car.

Penalty for mis-use would be just as severe as penalty for Red cross mis-use.

There certainly would have to be some clarification in use of Stop sign and the Force Majure rules. The bottom line is if a non-medical situation comes up, there should be a non red cross way of dealing with it.

Just the opinion of a guy that has spent his share of time towards the back and seen a little bit of everything.

 

[Morison]

>I'm personally in favor of a Red Stop sign added to the back
>of the route book.

Certainly a better option than using the red cross for non-medical emergencies ...

>Situations where stop sign would apply:
>1) Car burning to the ground. I've seen this personally. I
>showed the red cross because I didn't have any other option
>and the stage was blocked. My car would have been first one
>hit around a blind corner. How bad would that be to have a
>car plow into the back of another car at speed?

- I've never rallied in the states, but in Canada the triangle (we carry three of em) is placed in the centre of the road in the event that the road is blocked ... so one of your crew (driver/codriver) would quickly run back to a good point of visability and place the triangle ON THE RACING LINE indicating a blocked stage road ...

>2) Situation that occured at Oregon Trail.
>
>3) Car blocking the stage, no possible way of getting around
>it. At Prescott 99 I believe the stage was blocked by a car
>and a tree that was broken off. The tree had been removed,
>and we were barely able to get by the car.

See above ... ;-)

I don't see either of these as a valid use of a 'stop sign' as we already have ways to indicate the above problems. I think the 'power' for a competitor to stop a stage is in the event of a non competitor induced safety issue that has arisen since the passing of the safety cars (000,00,0).

Keith

 

[Steven D Perret]

Why not a Red Cross?

Ok, if you are interested in a novice point of view then read on, if not well .... :+

It would seem to me that the Red Cross is used as an indication of medical emergency or high likelihood of a potential medical emergency. I would think the possibility of meeting a car on stage at speed head-on would be cause for a Red Cross. If a competition car has made it onto the stage then what?s to say another one could not do the same??
I would think that this also would apply to a fire situation, especially in dry forestland like Washington packed with people out to see a race. (probably didn't think that statement could be made)

How do you take care of the people who get stopped on stage? You have a guy in front who may be off pace and you are not, you know that the guy behind you is trying to beat you and figure you will pass this possible situation and let the next guy deal with it.. Why not, you don't want to get shafted for time if the people behind you that have not started are still going to make a clean run (I am not saying that I would do this but we have already seen this year that people will use the Red Cross to there advantage). I want run time as much as the next guy but I just don't see how you could fairly restart a stage.

Please help me understand why the "High likelihood of medical emergency" would not be worthy of a Red Cross. As an ex firefighter I can tell you that EMS is accustomed to being called for something that they may not be needed for.. Its not a big deal for them! Sure it gets the heart rate up but it comes down to "Better safe then sorry"

This is intended to be conversation, I am not saying I am right or another way is wrong and I am not intending to irritate anyone here.

Steven Perret
Car# 226
Driftin4 Racing
[email protected]