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Andy,

The format you developped based on OTR is actually very workable.

With enough open mindednes recce can, and in my opinion should, be used for Club Rallies. I believe it would be beneficiary to start it on Club level in order to expose new rallyists who haven't had an opportunity to develop bad habits and prejudices to a system that is basicly used all around the world.

I did everything one can imagine concerning pace notes between 1983 and 1995, therefore I am not lacking the experience, I am willing to share my experiences with whoever needs it in order to have safer and more enjoyable rallies.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Well, I didn't want to take an ideological position, I wanted to try to figure out some ideas that would work -- because I'm probably the guy who'll volunteer to work the thing, if the ORG decides to give it a shot.

I appreciate Trevor's position. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I defer to the other OT organizers to make that call. With the format I outlined, though, we should be able to realistically accomodate any number of crews.

Experimenting with recce on smaller events first is good from an organizer perspective, but it is the more experienced competitors that will make the best use of it and spread better knowledge through the community. For that reason it may be best to start with the national events, on a voluntary basis with no "deadlines" for upgrading events that aren't able to support it. Mandates suck.

Beyond that, I still have some questions about the mechanics. How does nighttime affect notetaking? Lots? Less? Minimal? How about dust? The combination? We need more opinions from folks that have done rallies with pace notes. Mr. Samli, you have the floor.

andy
 

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Some very good points, some ideas clouded by fear, some clouded by lack of knowledge.

Every team can benefit from recce. Seeding has nothing to do with being able to use recce and pace notes. Recce and pace notes are equally beneficial to a seed 8 as it is beneficial to a seed 1.
The seed 8 who is not allowed to experience will inevitably be alienated from recce until he/she bvecomes seed 1. During the time he/she has to spend to become a seed 1 he/she will object to the idea of recce and pace notes due to the lack of a point of reference as we are all presently observing.

I am not against the Jemba system, but it has too many flaws for my taste. First of all I find it necessary to explain the reason behind the development of the Jemba System. This is totally my personal opinion and the intention is not to ridicule or belittle anybody. I lived and rallied in Sweden where the Jemba system originated, Jemba was not developped for rallying alone, it has been used for engineering purposes by land survey, forestry and road engineering. However because of the general uncommunicative and rather inpersonal mind frame of Swedes it has been adapted to rallying to minimize verbal communication. In Sweden there is an incredible penchant for automation, if they could get away with it they would rather push a button at the altar than to say "I Do". Naturally, thay adopted the system to rallying, how nice, it cut down the necessary communication during recce by 80 %. Later on they even developped a system that got rid of the codriver all together, Jemba was reading back the notes to the driver. Welcome to a codriver's nightmare.

I personally do not feel completely comfortable with Jemba, when I prepare my notes, I know what is where on them, I remember trees, rocks lots of mental images, but how can I be 100% confident with a note I didn't check ? A Jemba note prepared during the day, using a rental car, going 20-30 mph, when the weather is dry, will not work efficiently at night under rain when you are pushing a rally car through the stage. You will have information overflow if you drive at twice the speed the notes were generated. Plain and simple.

Now back to where to begin issue.
If the organiser of a Club Rally would like to try the recce idea, I can gladly offer to help them. I can help them with the logistics and the principles. I don't think there will be huge control issue during the recce, controling teams is not like herding cats after all.

Recce fees can not, should not and must not be more than the price of stage notes. Otherwise I would think that there is a malicious intent or favoritism.

Night time and weather effect the pace note process so much that over the years I became a firm believer that if I am passing the same stage twice, once in daylight and once in darkness, I have to prepare two separate notes. During the day you naturally see more, the brain has more visual information it has to process mainly because of the peripheral vision. On the other hand at night the field of vision narrows, even though the road remains the same the information the brain has to process becomes less in quantity but more in intensity. To give an example "kinks" during the day become a succession of individual "into" characters at night.

Reading pace notes is not easy, a codriver is more exposed to the risk of losing the note, it will be frustrating in the beginning, this is why a good codriver puts reference characters in the notes like an odd shaped rock, a fence, a building, an odd looking tree whatever is around, the junctions are a big help too. However this has to be done without exaggeration otherwise it will clutter the notes and the mind.

I still have a lot of my notes, both drafts and cleans, I can email sample pictures of the pages to those who are interrested.

Remember, Practice Makes Perfect

Cheers

M.Samli
 

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I do not understand the mentality (no offense Trevor) that only the top teams can benefit. Frankly all of the prepared course notes for Rim as well as the routebook were worthless becasue the conditions were atrocious and what is usually a hot dusty rally became a mud slog. Now recce may not have solved that particular instance but when you have seen a stage you can make more mental adjustments to the notes you have when conditions change rather then seeing something for the first time as you are making the call. I think that people get a bit overwhelmed by the concept because frankly they may not have been exposed or they may not completely understand it. Recce is not an issue about bringing US Rally in line with rally elsewhere or even trying to attract a WRC event. The issue of Recce is about allowing people that want to develop their skills (CO-drivers, Drivers, and organizers) and continue to grow. I know it may cost more, I know that it causes safety issues, but frankly motorsports are not cheap, and I can bet you that even in a poorly controlled recce there is more control then when you are hurtling down the freeway with 50000 other people around. Others may argue that it is adding risk, well to those I say that you are in the wrong sport if that is how you feel perhaps you should practice medition or something else even then a plane could land on your head. I like the model that Andy submitted it was a very logical solution and I think that it would be an appropriate base map to go off of. I do feel that Seed 8 drivers should be allowed to recce but be forced to purchase safety notes (no charge for recce) since it will give them a better mental idea of the stage and the safety notes will help give them a base that they could add and amend info to without overwhelming them with too many things to do. Mustafa I will give you a call I this week I want to chat with you about some things.

Jeff
 

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I find it hard to believe some of the comments I'm reading here about recce.

How many have done it?

We did it at Rallye De Quebec this year. Here's what we found with recce at RIQ.

Recce is not free form! You cannot exceed a certain speed, you cannot drive backwards up a stage. There are times set to recce specific stages/legs and you can only do the recce then. Control cards are used for each team. Two passes max each stage.

A parade is not a good idea, as everyone notes at different speed. Managing your time during a day of noting is very diffiicult as it is without getting stuck behind someone that stops at every corner. It is also difficult to see what the next corner is when there is a car right in front of you.

Those of us new to notes had to stop at times to discuss the corner and agree on how we wanted to note it. We could not go backwards.

Pacenoting is a skill that we need in North America. Some events will be able to offer the stages for recce and some will not due to a multitude of factors(volunteers/road use etc.).

Should there be a charge for recce? The cost of doing recce is expensive enough(travel and hotel). I'd be willing to pay a modest fee similar to the Jemba notes if the organizer somehow felt that they were loosing money from their pocket because I was doing recce and not using the safety notes.

If you didn't do recce at Charlevoix last year, you ran with a standard route book-there were no supplied safety notes like Jemba. On a three day event like Charlevoix, this is a definite disadvantage.

I'm continually amazed at the resistance in the US first to go with the Jemba, and now to entertain the idea of recce. If you want to do recce, go to Canada!? I will, thank you, but I also want to see it here.

As a driver, I want to continually improve my skillset and I feel that recce provides me the opportunity to do that. My co-driver and I were the test team for Tim O'Neil's advanced co-driver class which helps teams with recce and pacenoting.

I think that noting is an integral part of rallying, and that folks should have the opportunity to do it-especially those that are making assumptions about what it's like to spend a day doing recce.

We're going to Defi. St. Agathe next month so we can get more experience with noting(and run an awesome event). Those that are interested in noting should attend and see what it's all about.

Cheers! John
 

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>Recce is not free form! You cannot exceed a certain speed,
>you cannot drive backwards up a stage. There are times set
>to recce specific stages/legs and you can only do the recce
>then. Control cards are used for each team. Two passes max
>each stage.

Not all recce is the same. At Ramada, the recce vehicles (we did it in a rental Chevy Cavalier - poor car) queue up and sent out approximately 30 seconds apart. Sometimes it became a parade, sometimes we had the road to ourselves. There were two days of recce, a day spent on each leg. Show up at the start time for the day and get one pass at each stage.

alan
 

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I have seen a lot of talk about "bringing us in line with the rest of the world". I could be completely wrong, but arent most rally's in Finland blind? Could that, in part, be why they are so much better than the rest of the world and maybe we should bring (keep?) ourselves in line with the Finns'?
 

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I'd like to start by reminding everyone interested in recce that Cherokee Trails is having recce and it is just two roads.
Unfortunately, it is the same date as Defi.
---
Now for some rebuttal.
1st point:
quote from response #8
"so that we can have a homogenous sport in line with the rest of the world. "
Is this the required/stated purpose of rally in the US?
If so, that's the first I heard of it.
If we in-fact do want to mimic WRC rules and proceedures, maybe they'd better get there's done first, otherwise we'll be changing the rules weekly to keep in step.
point 1a:
with Jemba being used in other parts of the world and increasing, who knows what "the rest of the world" will be using in 10 years.
http://hem.passagen.se/jemba/
(US, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand)
point 2:
I know in road racing, every form of European-style formula has been rejected or adapted to US use.
F1 - Cart/Irl
F3 - dismal turn out for umteenth time
other chassis were adapted from F2 to make Atlantics and Lights
-- LeMans - (IMSA) needed US involvement to get going again
Touring cars died afeter a couple years which gave us Kurt.
---
My point being, if a youngster wants to go to WRC, why do we all have to suffer and pay for it?
If I wanted to go to F1, I'd move to England and do FF, Opel, etc. and that's what the Brazilians that run Barber Dodge do to get into CART.
I did recce at CT and it was nerve-wracking but informative and interesting. Not to mention time-consuming and expensive. I'll do it again at Defi and have a better understanding of how it works but to expect to do it all year at every event does not appeal to me.
Jemba solved the problem of learning roads in a consistant manner while I was new to the sport, much better than tulips.
I hated tulips when starting out because it took half the rally to know what the writer was thinking and get his style figured out (then I learned more than on person wrote tulps for some events and that scared the s#*% out of me all over again).
If an event wants to incorporate recce, fine, that's their perogative and I'll do it but I can't see making it a requirement for holding an event.
rz
 

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>The Finnish historic series is run blind. The national
>series for Gr. A and Gr. N cars (plus Class F etc.) is
>noted.
>
>- Christian
And the vast majority of ALL THE _OTHER_ cars are in their national classes under GpF.
And they do run Route book or blind rallies.
So MOST, or NEARLY ALL events are blind except the rounds for GpA/N cars. And VM.
Christian, there have been debates on some Swedish forums as much as you can get Swedes to discuss, about this and just like here, many inexperienced crews think that Notes are the key to happiness, some clearly older more experienced voices have pointed out that this difference _may_ be one of the things which helps "grann-land" Finland produce driver after driver with the driving skills move up to higher levels while Sweden lags behind, although miles or kms ahead of the US.
So fie skäms på dig för ett svar som är inte ett svar.
Stygging!


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
 

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you are a perfect example of what I advocate, that events allow recce but do not require it and allow people that do not want to recce to either purchase jemba notes or run with the typical route book. Frankly I feel that half of the people that say they would not want do recce would be more than happy to purchase notes from a top team that did do the recce over the jemba notes but that may just be a hunch. Let's stop talking in circles and get together and create a cohesive outline of how recce should be run and find an event that will work with us to try it. IF we start trying at the club level then we will be able to work out the kinks if and when we apply it to larger events.
 

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good point Randy, as usual.

Again and again we see people saying we have to get in line with the rest of the world, and I will bet a nickle that they have never competed in another country or read the rules that events are run under or the debates that other coutries have been having over the very same subjects as we do here especially the long ongoing trend to make rallies into little sprinty wanky things "a mere contest of speed, with results forgotten as soon as the event is done"* all twisted to be a endless photo op for a few.

Somebody other than me want to try and hammer home the idea of National Rules for National Events
International rules for International Events.

Resident furriners and visiting hired guns can play with the local rules when doing an event here, just like when we go there, we compete under _their rules_.

That goes for classes as well.
Sure, have the classes for Internationals AT INTERNATIONAL EVENTS, but for foookssakes it's pretty meaningless when it's a all domestic event.
That's what EVERY OTHER COUNTRY DOES, so if we want to be in line with other countries we will have classes to accomodate International classes, at International events, and 98% will be in National classes.


Regarding recce and or practice I say after watching the er um 'interesting' driving at the so called top just behind the hire guns from the British Isles, I'd say that what's needed is MORE PRACTICE period rather than specific practice for a set of stages.
Look at your results Randy!! Decent results with some old whumped-on Sub-a-rat which has maybe 145 bhp and 4 or 5 ft/lbs, but I gather you have had a bit of time in various things learning race craft so a change of format is not a big deal.

I think that's what Comrade Donnison was alluding to when he said that he didn't think that most crews would benefit from recce and practice, and I've said it regarding notes:
People need more skill and more speed before these are serious issues.
Right now it is posturing.


*A quote from a many year rally organiser regarding the shortenng and simplifying and homogenisation of rallys all in the service of "media".


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
 

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No Brian,

Most rallies in Finland are not blind, they are not even recced, most rallies in Finland are flat a$$ practiced, pass as many times as you want with whatever car you want, the team are always welcome to knock on the door of a house 2 turns from BFE and they are always received with a warm smile and a beverage. Do it here and you'll probably get a belly full of #8 bird shot.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

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RE: recce

Thanks, JV.
Jeffery and M.S.:
I'll run anywhere I can afford and talking in circles is all I can do, I just drive and enter these things and I just do what I'm told (usually). What someone needs to do is get with organizers and see if THEY want to take it on for an event or even just a stage.
Being out west, you both have a hard time going to the two recce rallys Sept. 6th that are already planned and that's too bad.
My thought is that if its allowed, recce would have to be at least attempted by all competitors as it is as unfair as a 2-hour service or 2-minute dust window for only the top teams. Some teams save money by not buying Jemba notes but I tried a stage without them and it was horrible, we got beaten badly on that stage.
I don't know if the real reason for Jemba was because of bad tulips but I was all for them because of the brits effectively cheating by using their poti and maps. Tulips were inconsistant and evil but having a legal way around them that was not universally accepted or supplied stunk.
rz
 
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