Special Stage Forums banner
1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Taking this discussion from the "are we going too fast now" thread...

In my best 2hr-meeting-corporate-tool voice: (Beuller?)[ul] [li] recce is useful only to experienced teams [/li] [li] recce is a dumb idea for Club rally and maybe even a lot of the National "Pro" folks [/li] [li] one pass is insufficient [/li] [li] a "parade" is also not a good idea [/li] [li] the folks that would benefit are likely willing to pay for the privilege [/li] [/ul] Howzabout this: [ul] [li] TSD format with reasonable speeds and one-minute intervals [/li] [li] 6 p.m. to whenever to do the whole course, once on Wednesday, once on Thursday [/li] [li] Friday for crew recovery and final note production [/li] [li] $1000 per crew for the privilege [/li] [/ul] Already I'm seeing a problem with splitting up the "Pro" field between the "National Club" folks and the Manufacturer teams. That goes to the goofy way the series' are set up. Perhaps this is a way to force the issue.

andy

edited for schtupid emoticon
 

·
I am not here anymore
Joined
·
2,798 Posts
I disagree.

First, I am a co-driver on no-budget teams and I want to get recce and pace note experience and am willing and able to take the time off to do the recce. However, a $1000 fee pretty much guarantees that I will only get recce experience at USAC and select Canadian rallies.

Second, at the end of a very busy first season, Ross Foster and I did Ramada Express and did our own notes. While we had lots of teethy problems (heck, we only had four miles experience on stage notes before that), I saw that it had lots of potential and it is the way that I would prefer to do rallies.

Last year, Ramada did their recce as a one-pass parade (30-second start intervals). Not the best scenario, but better than nothing.

alan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
Andy,

With all due respect, I feel obligated to ask you how you are coming to these conclusions. Please do enlighten us by expaining the reasoning and thought process together with contributing factors which led you the assumptions you metionned on your post.

Thanking you in advance for the extreme information avalanche , I hope, you will give us.

Yours truly

M.Samli
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
M.S., I think what Andy came up with was a composite of the previous thread's opinions. Yours is one of them and you (as do we all with an opinion) think you are right.
on to the next thoughts...
Is rally a made for TV event with cars going as fast as possible so that a promoter can collect money to provide the spectacle or is it an enduro done for the satisfation of the participants - or both or neither?
Here's my take - we have an organizer crisis, a worker crisis, a road use crisis and a few others too. On top of all of these problems, how can the drivers dictate the format? If Recce is impossible for an organizer to comply with, is that rally not held?
Here's another thought...
When CT announced full recce, did all the recce proponants immediately enter that rally?
rz
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,998 Posts
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if recce were required, we'd have to replace several of the existing ProRally events, as they just couldn't do it.

Bruce
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
142 Posts
I agree that given the current situation in SCCA rally-world with limited volunteer help and difficult road use restrictions, wide spread recce is unlikely. Would a single stage of a rally with recce be something that would work ? It would give SCCA competitors an opportunity to learn the art of writing and using pace notes while not putting a massive amount of additional strain on organizers and their limited volunteer workforce. It is conceivable that a single stage of recce could be added to the schedule without expanding that schedule to another day. Not as good as a full event with notes, but it would be a step.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,013 Posts
Well, three of the nine Canadian national events now have recce - we're about to do Defi notes for the first time on the first weekend in September. Like Quebec - recce Thursday, rally begins Friday, concludes Saturday. I don't know but I suspect that Charlevoix may go to a less ambitious recce schedule than in the past - in any case we've got good notes from several years on that event - we just refine them now (NOW I feel like a WRC driver!). Note that these events attract big entries from the US - at Charlevoix last year Buffum ran his only rally of the year, and at Rallye de Quebec Mitsubishi brought the two US cars and Choiniere came as well. There's a correlation between having pace notes allowed and the level of prestige and sophistication of the event.

Interesting that the three Canadian pace note events are are all in Quebec. There's a cultural aspect to this, I think. The novices aren't afraid to try to make notes, some teams aren't afraid to make notes and sell them (the liability issues make the hair stand up on the back of my neck), and the road owners are, perhaps, more accomodating. It is rallying, after all. The French get it.

But the lesson is I'm not sure it has to be all that daunting. I don't know why a rally can't do a one-day intense recce on the Friday or, for the Friday-Saturday events, on the Thursday.

Anyway I don't think there's any problam at all with the Jemba notes - I think it's fantastic that they're available to everyone, and so reliable. I just like pace notes too.

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
901 Posts
Going with Andy's TSD idea... because I compete in TSDs and know what they're about:

One of the good points about doing the Dryad Quest rally as a TSD because we couldn't have it as a ClubRally is that we use some of the same roads for Wild West, 3 months later.

So, a smart co-driver would have been supplementing the route instructions with their own scribblings, and an in-car camera, so the team could watch and "practice" in their living room until they had the roads down pat. :) Of course, we didn't think of that before the event, but we paid attention to the roads, etc.

It exposes the other side of rally to the performance rallyists, and it gives the organizers a chance to do a sort-of recce under the guise of a TSD rally, which, in this case, appeased the landowner so we could use the roads for Wild West.

No one had to take extraordinary amounts of time off work, entry fees were low, we all got a weekend of low-stress, low-maintenance, high-fun, and now we're all set for Wild West. Right? :)

KT
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
Here is my point and here is how I debate the issue.

I apologize it will be a little long winded but this is a serious issue and if I was to summarize it the essence might get lost.

Recce is for everybody, not only for the experienced teams, if the inexperienced teams don't start somewhere they will never gain the necessary experience. Without the experience it is not possible to debate the benefits of recce. As an initial reflex, those who have not experienced recce would object to it, it's human nature, when the automobile was first introduced people loyal to their charriots and ox carts have opposed to to the idea of a horseles carriage too.

Recce is not a dumb idea for Club Rally. Since Club Rally is supposed to be where new competitors learn the sport, gain experience, where experienced competitors hone their skills while taking advantage of lesser expenses to compete, that's where recce should start so that we can have a homogenous sport in line with the rest of the world. Recce is not a dumb idea for the rest of the Pro Folks, however laziness and fear of learning something new and beneficial is dumb.

One pass is truly insufficient. Considering the concerns that the landowners may raise, where possible , a minimum of 2 runs have to be made. In case of BLM owned roads we maybe able to have as many passes as we like. With appropriate ground work Rangers can be informed of the situation and can be requested to report any and all speeding and/or endangerement incidents to the sanctioning body.

A "Parade" is a good idea if the landowner doesn't want 50 cars to go through his/her land in an unorganized manner. Here is how it would work, "00" car with the Course Marshall would lead the group, each car would be released with 2 minute intervals, there is a strict speed limit of let's say 30 mph, a sweeper "000" vehicle brings the back. During the first pass the teams take their pace notes. Once the loop is completed, the group returns back to the first stage to check and if necessary correct the notes. Only the driver and the codriver are allowed to participate in the recce.

Indeed those who want to recce should pay for the privilege. However the recce fee should not exceed the stage note fee, which should be available for the competitors who chose not to recce.

Rallying is not a "Made For TV" event, should never be. Rally is a spectator sport that interrests a very specific, albeit rare, spectator who preferes not to drive to a track, sit down and watch cars go by hundreds of times while he/she enjoys his/her hot dog and beer. Rally spectator treks through the roughest terrain, eats berries when he/she can find them, endures sun, rain, snow, mud just to see the cars to pass for a few seconds. Rally is for the Rallyist not exclusively for the competitor. I am a competitor, I rally for my own satisfaction, call me selfish if you want, but I want the rallies to be safer and more attractive for the Rallyist.
For me the spectator is the Rallyist, the worker is, the organizer is, the service crew is and last but not least the competitor is the Rallyist.

I completely agree that we have an organizer chrisis, a worker chrisis, a road use chrisis. We have to keep in mind that we as the competitors have an obligation to the sport and to ourselves. We have to be the ones who dictate the format after an educated and intelligent thought process. We are the ones who drive inches from trees, millimeters from exposures and we are the ones shoveling out our money to participate in a sport where monetary gain is a very distant, almost never thought of, possibility. Being a competitor isn't limited to getting behind the wheel and blasting through the stages. If we want to get somewhere we need to be more involved, we nee ti take the reins in our hands.

There may be blind events, I am not saying that each and every rally must have recce. On the other hand the experience gained at the recce events would enable the competitors to be a lot more efficient and safe on blind events.

I am not sure whether eveybody is aware of the fact that FIA has two different licences, a competitors licence and a drivers licence. A privateer is required to have both licences in order to participate in a rally, a professional driver usually has only the drivers licence, his/her sponsor holds the competitors licence. For event registration there are two fee formats, if the driver is also the competitor the fee is 50 % less than the the team where the competitor is other than the driver, such as a manufacturers team or a fully endorsed team. I'm affraid we are missing the boat by not using a similar format here, not only the privateer is burdened, the organizer is short changed.

There are too many issues that deserve to be adressed separately and in detail, however gathering everything under one heading doesn't make sense. We have to admit that the situation we have in hand is like a derelict boat with too may holes in the hull, we have two options, we can either try to patch the holes or we can replace the hull. It will take a lot of work, we will not always agree but I think we can make it better as long as we believe in it, remain open minded and level headed.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
Mustafa you are 100% correct. I like the parade IDea because it controls the flow of traffic. Accidents happen on Recce and a prarde formation would help keep that to a minimum. I have never been able to understand why the USA is so backward. Metric system, socialized medicine, these are perfect examples of how this country could take an easier route but chooses not to. Recce is the future like it or not, there is no reason why this country does not have th best rally drivers in the world we have such a wide variety of terrain and weather there is no reason why a US championship could not be the best in the world. I think that it is ridiculous that our top drivers have to go over seas just to get proper pace note experience. We need to help all rally competitors from club to pro grow in skill, when the people around you are getting better there is usually a knock-off effect. Changes have to be made with all rally in this country and we can either move forward together and learn through trial and error or a few people will have to drag people kicking and screaming into the future.
 

·
codriveur
Joined
·
1,385 Posts
>Recce is not a dumb idea for Club Rally. Since Club Rally is
>supposed to be where new competitors learn the sport, gain
>experience, where experienced competitors hone their skills
>while taking advantage of lesser expenses to compete, that's
>where recce should start so that we can have a homogenous
>sport in line with the rest of the world. Recce is not a
>dumb idea for the rest of the Pro Folks, however laziness
>and fear of learning something new and beneficial is dumb


Right on target! Other than the vehicle, experiance, and raw ability everything MUST be equvialent or darn close. It would be like comparing a game of catch with my son to this weekends Yankees/Red Sox games.("This is baseball Dad?")

Having our Mortality/Safety consciousness raised significantly this year the community of haves and have-nots must grasp the fact that although the methods of rallying (Club vs. Pro) are different, the process must remain constant. From spectating at a Northwest Pro event to spectating @ a Rallycross in PA.. From the privilege of Recce to the extreme of a "blind event" we all must have the oppertunity to start from the same base point.

You can only learn so much english when speaking latin.

Bernie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
583 Posts
Pragmatically, only the private EVENT ORGANIZERS can decide this issue. The practical difficulties involved with recce in the U.S.A. will vary by State, land ownership, local cooperation and organizer capability (time, money, talent, volunteer support, etc). The desires, dreams and opinions of competitors, sponsers, and the sanctioning body can be nothing more than a request or advice. It is only the Independent Organizers of each event that can make the final determination. It can not be dictated to them.

I don't think you will get any serious complaint from either Pro or Club level competitors if they can't afford the time or expense of recce, so long as the event remains OPEN TO ALL even if they don't participate in the recce; and a DETAILED ROUTE BOOK and COURSE MARKES are prepared by the organizers.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
Once again I agree that teams can choose to participate in Recce, I also feel they should pay for the privilege but that the fee should not exceed the cost of course notes. We are all just trying to make it through the season with our budgets intact. Together through open and frank discussion I feel we can find a suitable solution that everyone can live with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
The only problem with doing it by parade is there is often times when you want to stop and look at a corner when pace noting. Having just done a full pace note rally recently, there are times when setting the notes, that the driver wants to stop and think about the exit of one corner and the entry to the next, is it a Into, or an And, or is it a 50 to the next, all that depends on the speed the car is carrying out of the corner. Sometimes you want to get out the car and look at the inside of a corner to see if you can cut it,is there rocks, stumps or irrigation pipes on the inside?

If you did it by parade you may lose that. One of the things the club here is looking at is getting one individual to pre-reccy the event, writting full pace notes, but then still allow reccy's with those notes so each crew can adjust the notes to suit their needs. As I understand it, the person they are looking at bringing in to do this can provide notes in a variety of standard methods. Having these notes will reduce the time required to reccy, but not the need for each crew to drive through.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
Please, if it works all around the world it would work here. You have plenty of time to stop and look at a turn, that's why the cars are sent with 1-2 min intervals, now if you are the only car that has to spend 10 minutes at each turn, believe me the cars behind you will kindly advise you to change sports and take up golf or maybe chess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
First off I never said the driver took 10 minutes at every corner.

Most events around the world as I understand it, provide a reccy period on each leg. The time of which varies from event to event, but for example lets say 4 hours (8 am to 12noon), There is a check ins and outs on each stage of the leg, you are allowed only two passes through each stage (possible 3 on tarmac)which have to be completed within those 4 hours. The process is repeated on each subsequent legs.

There is also open reccy's, which is what we do here. Once the route book is released you can reccy as many times as you wish. There are stewarts roaming the stages to ensure there is no speeding or dangerous driving, being caught doing either is exclusion from the event.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
I didn't mean to offend you.

To set the record straight, there are two formats;

* Recce
* Practice

In case of recce the road book is distributed on a given date, recce and pace note preparation schedule is set, race cars are not allowed on stages, speeding is prohibited.

In case of practice, the road book is distributed well in advance, in most cased as soon as your entry is accepted you receive the road book, in most cases practice ends 72 hours before the start of the rally, race cars are allowed, one driver can practice while his crew makes sure the entry and exits of the stage are secure, in most cases participants act like gentlemen (Many times I came head to head with cars turning around in the stage without precautions). Even though the pace is faster than recce, relative speed limits are enforced.

It would take a miracle to get practice system to work in the US, heck a quasi miracle is necessary to convince people that recce is not devil's invention and that actually recce is a good thing.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Some good points. I suppose I should have mentioned in my initial post that I wasn't necessarily presenting any conclusions, just trying to offer some talking points in an informal manner to keep the discussion going in a new thread.

I don't have any experience in the area so my contributions are a bit clueless. I realize this. I'm just standing here with a stick, poking at the dust cloud.

That said, I agree with Mustafa that if recce is workable for the club level, it stands to reason that would be used. Right now, there aren't many club folks in N.A. that could make full scientific use of recce, but if the sport continues to grow on the low end, recce will probably develop as a common element in club competition as it has outside N.A.

Recce causes a definite safety problem in that the recce itself needs to be managed safely. There will always be someone tempted to turn around and run back up the stage "to get one more look at that apex," or slow down to a crawl on open sections so they can take the difficult bits at 7/10ths in their rental. The combination makes my skin crawl. The slim majority of the injuries and incidents I hear about from the rest of world take place during recce. Being less glamorous, I assume that it is underreported compared to stage incidents, meaning that recce likely generates more real-world safety incidents than the actual events. Without seeing actual data, this will be my assumption.

I'm just not too keen on "open recce". I don't think we'll ever have the manpower to patrol well enough.

One reason for the 1 minute intervals as opposed to a nose-to-tail parade is dust. If dust isn't that big a deal, we could eliminate the intervals and TSD aspect.

Another way to encourage gentlemanly behavior is to score it like a TSD. Barring sweep-verified breakdowns, if your TSD score on a certain leg breaks a certain threshold, you start the rally 10 seconds (or 20, or 30, or whatever) in the hole.

I disagree with the idea of banning race cars from the recce. For a fair number of club teams, the race car is the only team vehicle that can be counted on to to make it through the course in a timely manner. If the recce is controlled adequately, bizarre episodes of red mist will be avoided. If the race car DNFs the recce, well, I don't think the team should be penalized, but, c'mon!

...and if a certain manufacturer team doen't want to expose their bafflingly fragile unobtanium transmissions to a couple hundred miles of unnecessary transit, they can use their nifty dealer cars instead. The best recce cars would be anything with decent shocks and sturdy tires. Whether that is the race car or not is no concern of mine.

The scenario I have in mind, with Oregon Trail as a model, is this:[ul] [li] tightly controlled TSD format or nose-to-tail parade format [/li] [li] at least one pass through the whole course Wednesday after six p.m. [/li] [li] at least one pass through the whole course Thursday night after six p.m. [/li] [li] [strong] one direction only! [/strong] [/li] [li] it may make sense for the organizers to run the recce course through individual sections more than one time while the recce is at the location -- this may make it possible to get three or four passes of the entire course over the two days [/li] [li] A fee more in line with a two-day TSD, perhaps $50 per club crew, $200 for a "pro" crew [/li] [/ul]

I'm definitely tailoring this scenario to my concerns about safety.

It's not that I don't trust you all not to be idiots, I just, well, don't trust [strong] anyone [/strong] to not be an idiot occasionally. Especially me.

andy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
No problems

We mostly rally on tarmac here (Barbados) and getting the roads closed for the event itself is pretty hard. Trying to get them to close it for practice or a "parade" style reccy in addition to the event would be really pushing it with the gov't. Which is why we use the open reccy style, between the regular police, and stewarts, speeds are kept down to the posted speed limit for the most part, plus there is oncoming local traffic. Additionally being a small Island you can resonably be anywhere on it, so it is hard to restrict competitors transiting stages in non reccy periods, so the easiest thing to do is just make it legal for everyone.

We definetly have geographic advantage over the US so it is not a issue with getting time off work etc. Having said that, my wife and I are looking at moving back to Canada, where distances between events, and getting time off work etc, will become a problem and maybe I'll apprecate the issues better.

Sean
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
946 Posts
I think the notes prepared by Pete Lahm will work for all but maybe less than 10 teams in the United states. If you aren't seed 1 or higher, you're not going fast enough (in my opinion) for the recce to make much difference. The notes are very very good. But they are "Safety" notes, and are not individually tailored for each team.

Pete has to have the roads available for him, another 15 cars a minute apart probably could be dealt with at most places.

30+ cars? No way, probably not any event could handle that.

Its about coming to a compromise that the Organisers could actually work with, and giving the teams that are at the very front of the field the opportunity to have the best course notes possible. But that opportunity should be expensive, because its a major addition of time and expense for the Organiser. There is no way Recce could be done at most places without signifigant cost. Thats why I threw a figure of $1000 out there. Its probably enough to convince landowners to allow more vehicles to traverse the course a couple of days earlier.

If only the top few open class cars take advantage of the Recce, then the typical National competitor and all Club competitors can use the current "safety" notes and do just fine. There is no need for them to add to the cost.

If you are really gung ho about doing Recce, there is probably a Canadian event reasonably close, or Laughlin.
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top