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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
from another thread:

"Other changes as well, except stages < 3 km remains, meaning to me, as a potential organiser, it's not worth holding a sprint anymore. I'd rather hold a regional for all the work, and all the preparation the car now needs for a sprint.
Craig"

Interesting, I have organised a regional and a handfull of TSDs and we have yet to hold a raly sprint, BUT I think that wth the ritght approach the Rally Sprint will be a MUCH easier event to put on than a regional rally.

I'd be interested in hearing the 'downside' to rallysprints.

As for requiring the safety gear ... letting rookies run with 4 pt roll bars but requiring experienced drivers to have a full cage seemed realy backwards to me.

We see Rallysprints as mainly serving as a stepping stone / training ground to performance rally and as an organised 'testing session'
 

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Agree'd. Rally is a very expensive sport. The place to get the feel of fast 'corners' is in a TSD where safty is at a min. Rally sprints should not cut the costs of safty. rather have a perf. cut. no big power cars for juniors. Safty should never be marginalized.

now on to keiths point, rookies/juniors are the most likely to need the use of the roll cage, rather than roll bar. Granted that when a pro biffs, he may hit harder, it wont happen as much.

Moral: limit the cars/performance a junior can use at the sprint.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

I've been event chairman of a regional rally and also rallysprints. RallyXs too.

Rallysprints offer many advantages to both the competitors and organizers over a regional rally.
For the competitor, the biggest advantage is the compactness of the event. No transits mean less gas. No transits and short stages mean less tire wear. A central service area located right at the stage mean no service crew required to drive your servicevan around and not burning gas driving it once at the event site. Generally, insurance and sanction fees are cheaper so the entry fees are less. In the US, certain rallysprints do not require drivers to wear Nomex suits. Some rallysprints do not require that you have a codriver. Many rallysprints held entirely on private property in the US have sanction exceptions stating that vehicle registration is not required making it cheaper by not having your rallycar registered and towing it to and from the event anyway.
For the organizer, there is usually only one landowner to deal with. Entries numbers can increase by having a sanction exemption not requiring vehicle registration. Short routebook or if you offer a drive-thru of the course, no routebook. Less marshalls needed. Easier to handle spectators because less terrian covered by stages. Many rallysprints have a rallyX the following day so that the course workers, spectators, codrivers, crew can have an opportunity to drive so it is easier to attract workers.

The only disadvantages I know of is less seat-time and some rallysprint venues lead them to be car breakers.

Start by finding a location were you can offer a rallyX. A large flat field or parking lot with loose surface that you can set a safe course marked by cones or tires. that non-rollcaged cars can compete in safely a relatively slow speed by high sideways fun. We usually reached our entry capacity of 60 cars at most of the 5-6 events we hold annually. Once you get a good base of rallyX competitors, you have them as course and event workers for when you have the number of teams with rally-prepped rollcaged cars to hold a rallysprint.

Grow it from the bottom up, rallyX into rallysprints into regional rallies into a national event.
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

This is something a few of us have been talking about here... Do we REALLY want anyone at speed on stage with anything less than a full cage? Sure its in the rules that half-cages are allowed...but I know if I was organizing a rallysprint I wouldn't feel comfortable.

I think rallysprints should be more about seat time and car development for fully prepped cars...not necessarily a stepping stone to stage rallies. After all...how many people "testing the water" will have a half cage anyways?
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

Warwick,
The half cage rule is now gone for 2004 in the national rule book. The consensus was that safety needed to be the focus. Driving suits fall into the 'strongly reccomended' category.
And to clarify, I agree dthat the vast majority of the cars out there will be current competitiors who are mainly interested in playing with set-up and getting seat time. HOWEVER, the value for people getting started on or their way to their first stage MUST be remembered and maximised. This is a perfect place for people to 'try' the left seat or event to see what their cars can do with others at the wheel. (I'd gladly trade Jorge cars for a run just to see the difference ;-) )

Dave,
We are in our third year of rallycrosses in Calgary and the events are a HUGE success. However, I don't see connecting the events as an option. We DO run a rallycross the day before our two regional rallies, and that has been HUGELY successful.

I am thinking of self marshalling if at all possible. splittig the sprint into 2 groups and requiring people to take points when they aren't running. They would have the option of showing up with 'marshal replacements' if they wanted to run the whole day or swap sides of the car.

I am also examining areas between Edmonton and Calgary which would make it a day trip from either major centre.
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

Rally sprint is the place to lurn...

In quebec to do rally sprint you need a licence...and to get that licence...you need to take the RSQ driver or copilote course...it usualy take place the saturday before the envent....

rally sprint is exacly like performance rally wen we speek of controle point ect ect.....so it the best place for the copilote to lurn how it work...so you dont get to a performance rally and get 15 minute penalety becose you were urly at every check point...

It also help the team to comunicate....TSD is also very good for that...but in a sprint you will know if your copilote can do the job...

Most team in quebec do sprint on winter tire...and if you invest in real gravel tire...used one will do the trick for a full season.



Alain Lavoie
24Rallyteam
http://www.abikeonline.com/24rallyteam/
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

the whole reason that rallysprint was huge in quebec was the lack of the requirement for all the gear , hence, cheap entry. That no longer exists, partially starting in 2003, now fully in 2004.

before, there was something like a pseudo enforcement like 'on your thrid sprint or 2nd season you needed full cages'

the way it was, it was an easy transition for people to start

now there is not much difference between short ss rally and sprints
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

I think what Keith is getting at is not only using Sprints to attract new people - by way of having more events of any type - hence more chances for people to see the sport - - - but also as using sprints as a test and tune day for stage rally cars and drivers.

In karting we have these "test and tune" days and the best thing about them is that since there is no "wheel to wheel" racing, we allow kart owners to bring out friends and such and let them "try" karting. Similar to a crack dealer the first hit is free - and then most become addicts.
I can tell you that the desire for me to build a car and start competing was the day that John Paynter and Pat R. took me and my brother for rides in their cars - after we had the whole suby team in karts.

I know that as soon as my car is done - and if we have sprints close by - I will for sure be letting others try my car in a sprint situation. Again - first hit is free!:)
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

>I will for sure be letting others try my
>car in a sprint situation. Again - first hit is free!:)

Will you? A rally sprint is still a race. I mean if you don't organize the event as a competition, then yeah maybe. But remember that they still need a license and such.

I do see the point in directly showing people by letting them drive and have some fun, but the issue there is that they have made no investment to the sport at that point yet. Something goes bad and they walk away, you, and possibly the organizers are left with the mess. No?

But just to let you know I'm 150% for rally sprints and test sessions, I feel we really need them, so that when we get to rallies, we aren't just race-training, but we're actually racing.

Cheers,
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

>I will for sure be letting others try my
>car in a sprint situation. Again - first hit is free!:)

no, usually first hit is TREE :+

but seriously, I expect to seesome swapping of partners in the rallysprints, and while there will be timing and notes and such, I can't see 'competition' being fierce for the first couple of years. Hell we don't even hav a full series planned for next year !
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

Keith do you know what kind of a license one needs to compete in rallysprints this coming year? Has it been changed?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
>Agree'd. Rally is a very expensive sport. The place to get
>the feel of fast 'corners' is in a TSD where safty is at a
>min.

We need to be a bit careful here. TSDs are where you get the feel of driving with a co-driver and driving to a certain pace ... some of tis may involve slightly agressive driving, but certainly not 'fasy corners' in the performance rally sense.

Definately TSDs can get you feeling comfortable driving aggressively on gravel, but the rallysprints are where you'll get the 'handle' on pushing on the 'fast corners' ...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

if you do not have a CARS license, you will require a regional rallysprint license ... must be a member of a CARS affiliated club, no medical, first aid is reccomended but not required. Availabel fom The Regional rally director.
(This is rallywest, Rally BC may vary)
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

Hey guys, lots of great points and arguments.

I have to side with those who say that Rally sprints are not so much about competition but about "testing and tunning"
Novices should do it because they have the most to gain from a rally sprint. Experts should do it because that is where safely canb test and measure the samllest set-up changes in theirs cars that could translate into those few seconds difference between them and the guys that did not do their home work.
It is possibly the best way for everyone to learn how to listen to what your car is trying to tell you (driving by the seat) because the onus is not so much on competition.
Smart drivers will keep timing of their runs to measure development rate and different settings rather than for competition purposes.

As far as safety gear is concerned, let's dont kid ourselves; anyone can hurt themselves, novice or experienced in eny car slow or super fast. We should be doing everything possible to minimize damage and injuries by complying with the latest safety standards, and if some do not want to participate beacuse they dont have the equipment yet, so be it.
I rather see us have weak entry fields at the begining rather than no Sprints or rallies at all due to an insurance issue caused by a fatality.

Cheers
Jorge
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

>I know that as soon as my car is done - and if we have
>sprints close by - I will for sure be letting others try my
>car in a sprint situation. Again - first hit is free!:)


I don't mean anybody standing around can jump into my (or any) car - but more along the lines of people I know - that I think would be interested in Rally.

Even at our Kart race days we allow complete beginners to jump into their "friends" karts after all the racing is finished. We still have insurance through ASN for them - and we only allow 3 people out at one time - and always in a "lead - follow" situation.

A similar situation (as I see it anyways) would be to allow me (for example) to bring out a friend or two to a sprint - and when all of the "racing" is done - I would be allowed to let my friend drive my car - with me as passenger - through the last 3km stage. (even if I drove him through it in one direction first)

Benifits would be - getting extra people out to sprints (can you say "marshalls") and getting people actually into a rally car!
Also works great as a way to reward your crew - by letting them drive "your" car

Just my 2 ¢
:+
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

>and if some do not want to participate beacuse they dont
>have the equipment yet, so be it.

What do you mean by that? Wasn't it already stated that everyone needs a full roll cage. Everyone needs the regulated safety equipment or the can't compete, so what is not really a question of if they want to participate with what they have, only if their equipment meets the standard. Right? (Not trying to get into an argument, just trying to understand what you were saying)

>I rather see us have weak entry fields at the begining
>rather than no Sprints or rallies at all due to an insurance
>issue caused by a fatality.

Agreed
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

Yeah for sure I agree with you, it would be wicked to have those people to get a chance to do that. As long as they have licenses though right, as its structured though, you can't just "jump in" without one.

But sure if my buddies who I want to get into rally can afford a license, I would think about letting them take my old car out for a rip. BUT, I think I would want them to really have some rallyx experience with the car first. Just because personally if you let someone take a car down a stage with no prior experience in that particular car, they won't be as well off as if they had experience with it at low speed on a flat course.

Also it brings up the question of what kind of road should be used, if there are exposures, its it flat, no blind crests. All this stuff. It all depends on the target demographic of competitiors.
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

Actually, road choice is prety limited - Max 80Km average on the stage, 3Km max length, no exposures ....

the part of comstock that was used for PF shakedown would be perfect for a sprint ... Princeton cutoff, however, not.

As for running the stage after the event ... that's not likely going to happen. Switching out co-drivers for rides ... more likey, double entries with the car, extremely likely ... providding you bring help ;-)

I'll draft something up and get it posted on how I see this working and look for feedback ...
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

>Actually, road choice is prety limited - Max 80Km average on
>the stage, 3Km max length, no exposures ....

Well I know the the first two points there, but I never read anything about exposures.

I still feel with those regs that CARS has for limiting, you still have a lot of choice. We have scoped a few roads the could be used under those regs for sprints, but have wrote them off for other reasons.
 

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RE: Rallysprints (Pros & Cons)

I am not really talking about letting our "friends" drive our cars at 100% - heck not even at 50% - but just letting them see what it is all about.

Like I said earlier - It was the ride John Paynter gave me that made up my mind for me. I had been a rally fan for years and years before "that" day - but had always thought I would just remain a fan.
I got a ride - and I knew that someday I HAD to have my own car.
Heck - my parents even gave me a name with initials WRC 38 years ago - so it was kinda inevitable:7
 
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