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Uh Oh, UH OH, UHH OHHH!!!
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Discussion Starter #1
Recently at a rally I was asked to show my vehicle registration or title/ownership certificate, even though my insurance declaration page listed my name as the owner of the vehicle.

From the current 2011 RallyCar rule book.

ARTICLE 4: ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
4.4. PROOF OF INSURANCE
Proof of insurance for the competition vehicle must be presented before the start of the event. Proof of insurance consists of a policy declaration form that lists one or more named insured individuals, one or more vehicles covered by the policy and the limits of coverage. The declaration must list either the entered driver or entered vehicle or both. If the entered driver is not listed as the named insured, permission of use from the named insured is required. If the vehicle is not listed as an insured vehicle, proof of ownership is required and, if the driver is not the owner, permission of use from the owner is required. If both the driver and the vehicle are listed, no additional documentation is required for proof of insurance. Proof of ownership can be either the title/ownership certificate or current vehicle registration listing the registered owner. Permission of use can be an 30 authorization statement made directly to the registrar or an authorization letter.

Proof of insurance for support vehicles (such as service trucks) must also be presented before the start of the event. Proof of insurance consists of a policy declaration form as above. Either one of the named insured on the policy must be the entered driver, co-driver or a registered member of the crew or permission of use for the support vehicle (as described above) is required. In lieu of an insurance policy declaration, a rental agreement for the vehicle is acceptable.
The way I read that rule, as long as the vehicle is listed and I'm listed as the owner on the insurance policy declaration, than that is the only document I need to present. If I'm interpreting the rule wrong, please tell me. This was the first rally that I've ever been asked to show my vehicle registration. (even at rallies where Mary Shiloff has requested documents ahead of time) I have no problem showing it, but if it is not in the rules then I don't see why I should have to.

If registrars want this shown to them I would like some discussion as to why I need to show this document and discussion about getting the rulebook changed. Or I guess an alternative would be to add this requirement to the official supps for the event.
 

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your other left, you idiot
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Interesting.

Don't you carry it in the car (for the cops?) I've always carried it with all the other papers. Maybe it used to be there (I'll look when I get home). Both NASA and CARS require it. (bolding mine)

NASA 3.9.1
"3.9.1 Vehicle Registration
Each vehicle entered in a NASA Rally Sport event must have a
current and valid vehicle registration.
This requirement may be
waived for closed venue events."

CARS B.I.B.1.b
"1. For each crew, a signed, self declaration will be submitted upon registration that declares that the crew
has the following:
(a) Provincial, or equivalent, driver's licence for any crew member listed as a driver;
(b) Vehicle registration for the competition vehicle and any service vehicle;
(c) Third person liability insurance covering such vehicles.
The registrar may chose to verify compliance with any aspect of the self declaration."

Recently at a rally I was asked to show my vehicle registration or title/ownership certificate, even though my insurance declaration page listed my name as the owner of the vehicle.

From the current 2011 RallyCar rule book.



The way I read that rule, as long as the vehicle is listed and I'm listed as the owner on the insurance policy declaration, than that is the only document I need to present. If I'm interpreting the rule wrong, please tell me. This was the first rally that I've ever been asked to show my vehicle registration. (even at rallies where Mary Shiloff has requested documents ahead of time) I have no problem showing it, but if it is not in the rules then I don't see why I should have to.

If registrars want this shown to them I would like some discussion as to why I need to show this document and discussion about getting the rulebook changed. Or I guess an alternative would be to add this requirement to the official supps for the event.
press on,
 

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Being the registrar in question, I'll put in my two cents:

Each and every entered competitor received the following email on Monday May 15, 5 days prior to the event from me outlining the documents I expected to see from them at registration:

Hello from your friendly competitor registrar:

Just a few notes as we approach the event in just 5 days.

Please complete any necessary license renewals with Rally America / RallyCar prior to your arrival at the event. Contact Bob at RA/RC to update your credentials.

You will find attached to this email a copy of the current supps and the one bulletin that has been issued so far.

Please be sure you have your state issued driver's license, competition license and proof of registration and insurance for both rally car and service vehicle for presentation at registration.

I will be departing for the event on Thursday the 19th, but will continue to check for incoming emails once on-site.

I can be reached at the event via my cell-phone at xxx-xxx-xxxx. Please use this number for any updates if you will be late arriving or have other issues regarding registration matters.

Thanks, we are looking forward to seeing you at the event.

Brad Odegard
--
Competitor Registrar
Rally Minnesota 2011
May 20-21 - Park Rapids, MN
http://rallyminnesota.com
Emphasis added

I agree that section 4.4 is in a word "messy" and seems to make proof of insurance equivalent to proof of registration.

I believe part of the problem lies in the fact that for national events, items such as proof of ownership/licensed for road use are handled in a central database that is only accessible to the national registrar, not at all helpful to those of us running stand alone regional events.

As registrar, I have to verify the following items:

1. Competition vehicle ownership, or lacking that, approval from the owner of the vehicle for the entrant to use that vehicle in the event.
2. Insurance on the competition vehicle sufficient to meet the minimums required by RA/RC
3. Driver/Co-Driver's license to operate a motor vehicle
4. Driver/Co-Driver's competition license status
5. Insurance and registration status of service vehicle
6. Waiver and wrist banding of Driver, Co-Driver and any service personnel

In the end, we found a way around the issue, and no-one was prevented from competing due to this issue.

I plan to discuss this matter in-depth with Mr. Niday to sort out a better way to handle the issue, or at least get the rulebook cleaned up so it doesn't cause any problems in the future.

As a followup, in MN (for MN registered vehicles) it is statutorily required (I've been told this was changed about 5 years ago) that you have both proof of registration and proof of insurance in the vehicle at all times.

Congrats to Team Huebbe on their excellent drive in what I considered to be pretty rough conditions.

Brad
 

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I think the question is really- why is someone looking for vehicle ownership information when it's not required as long as the driver is a named insured for the vehicle being entered?

Also, co-drivers aren't required to hold operators permits.

Is these just misunderstandings as to what the registrar is required to check, or for rally MN, was the intent to modify entry requirements for the event? The latter would require a sanction exemption I'd assume.

I know these situations are stressful for everyone.

The optimist in me says this is a great question because it means we have more regional events happening.
 

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Uh Oh, UH OH, UHH OHHH!!!
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Being the registrar in question, I'll put in my two cents:

Each and every entered competitor received the following email on Monday May 15, 5 days prior to the event from me outlining the documents I expected to see from them at registration:
I didn't receive the email. Possibly got caught with other spam. My suggestion would be to make requests like these as bulletins after the supps were put out there (or put them in the supps to begin with). (and most likely as the rule is written now, a sanction exemption would be needed) Also in my mind, emails carry no "official" weight, but are most helpful otherwise.

Interesting.

Don't you carry it in the car (for the cops?) I've always carried it with all the other papers.
Yes, I did have it in the rally car and my truck. (since I legally need to have it in the car)


Maybe it used to be there (I'll look when I get home). Both NASA and CARS require it. (bolding mine)
The one NASA event I have run (WV 2008) I wasn't asked to show it (but maybe the registrar forgot or it wasn't in the rules then)

I believe part of the problem lies in the fact that for national events, items such as proof of ownership/licensed for road use are handled in a central database that is only accessible to the national registrar, not at all helpful to those of us running stand alone regional events.
In the 2 national events I've entered (100AW 2010 and 2011) Mary has requested ahead of the rally only proof of insurance and then stated the rule book for other documents that might be needed. I've never been asked, or have given, a copy of my vehicle registration to Mary. (As a side note, I actually like the way Registration is handled at the national event, since I submit all of my documents as PDFs ahead of time and when I get to registration at the event all I need to do is sign the waiver and get a wrist band.)

Maybe it's my conservative nature... I don't like being required to do something that isn't written in the rules. And, since I've never been asked to produce that document before it was more of a Huh? moment.
 

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your other left, you idiot
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"proof of insurance"

After more carefully reading John's original question and going back to 4.4, this is a really poorly written section.

"Proof of insurance", "title", and "vehicle registration" have almost nothing to do with each other; and certainly do not belong under the catch all heading of "proof of insurance".

Below, the bolding is mine.
_______________________________________________
"4.4. PROOF OF INSURANCE

Proof of insurance for the competition vehicle must be presented before the
start of the event. Proof of insurance consists of a policy declaration form
that lists one or more named insured individuals, one or more vehicles
covered by the policy and the limits of coverage. The declaration must list
either the entered driver or entered vehicle or both. If the entered driver is
not listed as the named insured, permission of use from the named insured is
required. If the vehicle is not listed as an insured vehicle, proof of ownership
is required
and, if the driver is not the owner, permission of use from the
owner is required. If both the driver and the vehicle are listed, no additional
documentation is required for proof of insurance.


Proof of ownership can be either the title/ownership certificate or current vehicle registration listing the registered owner. Permission of use can be an authorization statement made directly to the registrar or an authorization letter.

Proof of insurance for support vehicles (such as service trucks) must also be
presented before the start of the event. Proof of insurance consists of a
policy declaration form as above. Either one of the named insured on the
policy must be the entered driver, co-driver or a registered member of the
crew or permission of use for the support vehicle (as described above) is
required. In lieu of an insurance policy declaration, a rental agreement for
the vehicle is acceptable."
________________________________________________

By the first bolding, (If the vehicle is not listed as an insured vehicle, proof of ownership
is required), if the vehicle is listed, then proof of ownership is not required (by my reading) - so, no registeration card.

The second bolding, (If both the driver and the vehicle are listed, no additional
documentation is required for proof of insurance)seems to mix insurance and ownership. I don't know what it is trying to say.

All this reads like it is a d*mn trap rally............

(So, I have no idea if Brad was amending the rules and needed a sanction exemption, or not)

press on, (somehow)
 

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It becomes confusing if a person makes the assumption the registrar is tasked with confirming the ownership of the vehicle.

On the whole, the function is to reduce liability exposure to the event by confirming vehicles are covered, entrants have signed their waiver, and the driver holds a valid operators permit. The end sum is determining that they're not an unusual risk to operate a motor vehicle.
 

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aircooled
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The second bolding, (If both the driver and the vehicle are listed, no additional
documentation is required for proof of insurance)seems to mix insurance and ownership. I don't know what it is trying to say.
That's the way I understand it. Law talkin' man Bruce said at registration that you normally can't insure something you don't own or have a legal interest in. So I guess the rules are mixing insurance and ownership.
 

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I would think that since the vehicle needs to be legal to operate on a public road that showing proof of regristration is a requirement. You can get proof of insurance without owning or registering a vehicle. I don't see what the problem is. Seems like common sense to have that paperwork in your posession and show it at registration.

For RA, they keep ital on file and you only need to show if they have an expired copy. Thats how it was at Olympus.
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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NASA and CARS require [proof of insurance]
Yup, NASA requires that you have it... but you don't have to bring it to registration or fax it in or send us a copy. (The policy numbers do go in the online registration database.)

Got the idea when I went up to a CARS event three years ago. After seeing how they do it NASA now doesn't require that you bring any of the insurance paperwork (proof-of or declarations page), or the registration paperwork, for either the rally car or service vehicle, to registration, ever. The driver signs this form and that's it for paper.

Since the co-driver doesn't sign it, of course, Jimmy you wouldn't have noticed it. :)

Back in 2009 was the last time my registration was flooded with that paperwork, and we're all glad to be rid of it. :cool:

Cheers,
Anders
 

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your other left, you idiot
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Anders, with his drivers' hat on, didn't read what I previously posted:

CARS B.I.B.1.b
"1. For each crew, a signed, self declaration will be submitted upon registration that declares that the crew
has the following:"

Last time I checked, both driver and co-driver are members of "the crew". Yes, I have signed that form.........

What Anders is really saying/not saying:

Both NASA & CARS allow the competitor to sign that they have complied. RA/RC operates under trust, but verify.....

Yup, NASA requires that you have it... but you don't have to bring it to registration or fax it in or send us a copy. (The policy numbers do go in the online registration database.)

Got the idea when I went up to a CARS event three years ago. After seeing how they do it NASA now doesn't require that you bring any of the insurance paperwork (proof-of or declarations page), or the registration paperwork, for either the rally car or service vehicle, to registration, ever. The driver signs this form and that's it for paper.

Since the co-driver doesn't sign it, of course, Jimmy you wouldn't have noticed it. :)

Back in 2009 was the last time my registration was flooded with that paperwork, and we're all glad to be rid of it. :cool:

Cheers,
Anders
press on,
 

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Uh Oh, UH OH, UHH OHHH!!!
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Discussion Starter #14
For RA, they keep it all on file and you only need to show if they have an expired copy. Thats how it was at Olympus.
What is "it" in your case? Vehicle insurance or Vehicle registration?
 

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I would think that since the vehicle needs to be legal to operate on a public road that showing proof of regristration is a requirement. You can get proof of insurance without owning or registering a vehicle. I don't see what the problem is. Seems like common sense to have that paperwork in your posession and show it at registration.

For RA, they keep ital on file and you only need to show if they have an expired copy. Thats how it was at Olympus.
None of the papers being shown to anyone mean ANYTHING other than the sanctioning body has practiced due diligence.

You can have insurance declaration forms that are for policies that are no longer in force, registrations for cars that have been recently sold, and ID cards that are from states or countries where the person no longer lives, or has ever lived.

The only thing that is being proven is that the sanctioning body put reasonable and expected effort into verifying that the vehicle operator is qualified and insured to operate the vehicle.

This is a similar case to scruitineering- the inspectors do not judge the quality or fitness of the safety equipment, only that it meets the specified requirements.
 

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Uh Oh, UH OH, UHH OHHH!!!
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Discussion Starter #16
Maybe it used to be there (I'll look when I get home).
The old rules (at least from 2005-2007 since that's what I have) were written as:

4.4. VEHICLE REGISTRATION
The vehicle registration certificate or the certificate of ownership must be available for inspection by officials before the start of the event and at any time during its progress. This serves as evidence that the car entered is on the road legally and is either owned by the entrant or is being used by the entrant with the permission of the owner.
The old rule doesn't state that it must be produced to event officials at registration (like it does for the Insurance Policy in section 1.6 C). Just that it must be made available.

Looks like in 2008 the 4.4 rule was changed to its current form.

Maybe someone from RA/RC can chime in.
 

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Cheddarwagen Pilot
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It's listed in the 2008 Rule Changes doc. It is supposed to be changed from a registration requirement to a scrutineering requirement, to allow for temporary tags (which aren't easily carried into registration).

I've always presented my vehicle reg at competitor reg, I didn't notice if they didn't check it or not.

http://rally-america.com/info/Archives_2007/Rule_Bulletin_2007_011.pdf said:
Add Article 6.4.B.5:
5. Vehicle Registration
All competition vehicles must be registered for road use. This may be
indicated by valid license plate(s) attached to the vehicle and/or valid
registration paperwork presented on request at scrutineering. In lieu of
license plates and registration paperwork, a temporary road use permit
affixed to the vehicle is acceptable.
Rationale: Rally America is primarily concerned with verifying that competitors
have insurance. Also, many temporary vehicle registration forms are affixed to the
competition vehicle and cannot be presented at registration. On the other hand, the
car passes through scrutineering and vehicle registration can be verified there.
 

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I can't ever recall an event that had been or is a part of the RA event group where I DIDN'T have to produce both vehicle registration and proof-of-insurance for both rally car and service vehicle, starting back in the 80's with SCCA.

I do agree that an email is not a suitable method for specifying this, although it can be a good tool for friendly reminders. Any such info about requirements should be either in the rulebook or in the supps. John, not picking on you, but your note that you never got the email matches the point made in another recent thread that email is never a suitabel means for official notices and regulations.

Mark B.
 
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