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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am scoring rallies since a long time and I am always surprised by the question: “Did you add road penalties?” It is always the same answer “Yes” since my program does not work without ALL the competitor’s times (in time, start time, finish time, service entrance time, etc.). The program manages ALL the addition. It is pretty obvious for me that it is the only way to do it but its creating a big discomfort toward “customer satisfaction”.

Some drivers complain about the scoring system when they should complain about the math skill of their co-driver. Drivers seem really surprised by those road penalties. From the comment I am getting (Did you add...) and comparing results of other system with the same competitors and same timing rules it seem that “overlooking road penalties” is common in rally timing.

I am thinking about adding an “overlook road penalties” feature in my program. It will emulate a stressed person having to subtracting poorly written time to find out road penalties. That way my program will work the same as most of the other scoring system and every body will be happy, specially the drivers.

Give me your comment. That will help me finding the percentage of human error I will implement in the system. And do not be afraid, that will be completely transparent, nobody will notice the new feature because in the rules it say that all the road penalties should be add in the result.

George
You can reply directly to me: [email protected]

P.S. Some peoples can suppose that all those penalties come from CARS timing system but I check the result I did at the Maine in 2003 and before. Also, I do not compile all Canadian rallies, so looking the other systems I found out a total of 3 road penalties in one and 6 in the other. I got 47 road penalties at the Tall Pines last week-end. As you can see, the system I am using for 25 years is still too far in advance. Since most organizers want happy drivers, I will “fix” my system.
 

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JG,

Please don't change your system. It works quite well, you do tons of work to support many events, and any legitimate road penalites SHOULD be scored; it's part of the event. (Partly a traditional emphasis on route following and timing from our TSD roots, and partly to keep the event running well.)

I can't imagine any really professional event wanting the road points to not be scored. Can you imagine scoring personnel at a WRC event caving into a competitor or team manager's pressure? The hue and cry from the other teams would be huge, the other teams would be justified, and this would be enforced per the rules.

The ONLY provision that you might consider in your program is to be able to selectively remove road penalites from any of the road sections. In that way, if the organizer realizes that something had been messed up in the routebook or scorecards, or some inexperienced control crew entered wrong times, or there was any unforeseen problem on a transit, then the roadpoints for that transit could be deleted. This is a ligitimate situation, and the scoring system should allow the event organizer to implement that type of decision.

As far as competitor time errors, yes it is pretty amazing, and can so be simply fixed with a calculator. It's seems pretty rare for the front-runners, but becomes more common further back in the field. These are senseless penalities most of the time, and I am sure that the drivers and co-drivers who make a fuss over this are just mad because they are mad between themselves or at themselves, and, like most angry people, tend to take it out on the closest 'victim', which often is scoring. A formal scoring inquiry or protest is the only legitimate way to handle these; it serves to force people to put their issues in coherent arguments and in writing, and helps to avoid some rants and raves.

I feel that is the role of the Clerk of Course or Rallymaster to deflect any unwarrented pressure on scoring personnel. If this is happening, then I think you should discuss it with the event organizers. If this does not get resolved, then the next time this event take place, I think you should politely decline to score for that event, stating the reasons why, and what would have to change before you would accept the position again.

Thanks for all your good work!

Regards,
Mark B.
 

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don't cut
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I've found it easier just to not get road penalties in the first place, that way you don't have to worry about adding them in. :p

Seriously though, my codriver is like a road point Nazi. He hasn't gotten one to stick for like 30 years, and it's become an ego thing. Whenever we get one, he runs around and argues with someone until it's yanked. I dunno who he talks to, and what he says, but he usually leaves in a hurry and comes back with a smile saying something like "All taken car of, don't worry about it." For all I know I've just been betrothed to some organizer's homely daughter, all for the sake of a road point.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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Left seat and not British!
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There does appear to be a reduction in true "navigating" skills of today's co-drivers....at least in the US and Canada. At 100AW every year we get several (read that usually more than 4-5) co-drivers who ask some official somewhere "when am I supposed to check in here?"

Of course there is the issue of Canadian and US formats that confuse some folks, and I have to check up and make damned certain I know which system is being employed (also Canadian at Cherokee Trails and possibly other NASA events). That can be confusing even to skilled co-drivers. But once you've got that dialed in, then every co-driver should be able to run a simple T.S.D. leg and show up where he's supposed to be at LEAST on his minute. Geeeez. And there aren't even any calculations worse than adding transit (and possibly stage lateness) minutes to an out time somewhere.

Jean-Georges, please keep up the good work. Organizers, toughen up!

Kim DeMotte
Official Old Fart, etc.
and a really picky-assed co-driver!
 

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>JG,
>I like your CARS system, it makes sense.
>Both RA and NASA are doing a fantastic job with the scoring
>systems, procedures and updates.
>European countries where I have competed (Italy, Great
>Britain) are not even close to the timing and scoring we have
>here in N.A.
>alexgelsomino.com


Alex it must be a long time since you competed in EUROPE.
We have the most modern timeing and scoreing there is and we can have it real time on the web, Not like RA houre's later if not days.
The timeing systems here are primitive.
JG's is the most accurate in NA...His is based on FIA european style.
 

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L1 !!! HPR into HPL
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George,

As a TSD Ralliest and Performance Rally Co-Driver with over 40 years of experience, I implore you to include road penalties in your program. If, and only if the penalty is officially removed should the penalty go away. Timing between controls of any type is part of all types of rally as much as the time it took to complete the stage.

We must keep track of transits, etc. or the rally could go on for days with controls never closing. Keep the road penalties!


David Weiman
rallydave at pobox dot com
 

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Road books are for transits.
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>Alex it must be a long time since you competed in EUROPE.
>We have the most modern timeing and scoreing there is and we
>can have it real time on the web, Not like RA houre's later if
>not days.
>The timeing systems here are primitive.
>JG's is the most accurate in NA...His is based on FIA european
>style.
>

Not very long, Keane. Just couple years. (Wales 2002, was the last one)
Also, funny how Dedominicis and his codriver (50 WRC events between the two of them) praised the timing and scoring at LSPR, as one of the best they had ever seen. I guess it's not that "primitive".
Anyway, I shall compete back in EU couple times in 06, so I hope to come back with a better opinion. I will let you know. :)

alexgelsomino.com
 

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>There does appear to be a reduction in true "navigating"
>skills of today's co-drivers....at least in the US and Canada.

The current trend is away from rallying and toward racing.

One could remove the "ally" from "Rally", replace it with "ace", and do away with road points.

For that matter.... Allow "recce" (aka practice), and do away with co-drivers (aka navigators).
 

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>I have never heard about omitting road penalties, except at
>special beginner events.
>
>If you're getting road penalties, you need a better co-driver,
>not a different scoring system.
>
>Don't change it Jean-Georges!
>
>- Christian
>
>Bjorn Christian Edstrom
>www.christianedstrom.com

I could have selected any of the posts to append this to, but I chose this one because it's short and to the point. Many rallies (including RA and NASA events) put up stage scores as soon as they are handed in. Then they audit the cards and put in the road points. This is a good thing, as competitors want to know NOW how their speed compares to others. Ergo, "Do these scores include road points?" when a competitor sees a total that doesn't seem to make sense. I've asked the question on more than one occasion, and I've heard many others do the same. I don't see anything strange here.

No one is suggesting that road penalties are not being tallied. No one is suggesting that road penalties be banished. Jean-Georges asked why competitors behave the way they do. Now (hopefully) he knows.
 

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Jean-Georges--

Keep the road penalties function in your program. Rallyscoring.com has the best timing in North America, and your road penalties tracking is a big part of that.

When brain fade intrudes and I commit a timing blunder, I need/want to know about it. Same with lateness penalties caused by service issues or changing flats on transits, etc. I keep track of those kind of things and need to see the "official" numbers to confirm them or decide when to file an inquiry.

Lateness penalties and timing errors are part of rally, things the good teams are always trying to minimize...yet another way to gain competitive advantage.

Dave G
Co-Pilote
Last Ditch Racing

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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April fool ?

Now I "assumed" that JeanGeorges was just messing with us. That, or there was a huge disconnect between the French and the English.

I can just imagine the fun that Grimmy could have with a rally where there were no penalties for lateness, or earliness (the mind boggles).

I know that JG has an over-ride in his program to omit calculated "errors". At our ATC at TP, there was a car running WAY late (they had been off), co-driver walked in, asked if they could check in early so as to catch up with the field and not be as much of a safety hazard (a BIG gap in the running order) - I radioed it in, got permission, they checked in "early" with no penalty, and this was not reflected in the scoring as being early.

JG - things are working just fine (from your end) the way they are now. I am absolutely amazed at competitors who show up at a new to them event without a rule book.

press on,
 

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>>Alex it must be a long time since you competed in EUROPE.
>>We have the most modern timeing and scoreing there is and we
>>can have it real time on the web, Not like RA houre's later
>if
>>not days.
>>The timeing systems here are primitive.
>>JG's is the most accurate in NA...His is based on FIA
>european
>>style.
>>
>
>Not very long, Keane. Just couple years. (Wales 2002, was the
>last one)
>Also, funny how Dedominicis and his codriver (50 WRC events
>between the two of them) praised the timing and scoring at
>LSPR, as one of the best they had ever seen. I guess it's not
>that "primitive".
>Anyway, I shall compete back in EU couple times in 06, so I
>hope to come back with a better opinion. I will let you know.
>:)

Good for you Alex, hope you will enjoy it...You will see what I mean
The US are light years behind EUROPE when it comes to running rally's
Timeing and organizeation...Rallying was getting good over there until SCCA ruined it. NASA are puting on a good show so far. Keep on trying.
>
>alexgelsomino.com
 

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RE: April fool ?

>At our ATC at TP, there was a car running
>WAY late (they had been off), co-driver walked in, asked if
>they could check in early so as to catch up with the field and
>not be as much of a safety hazard (a BIG gap in the running
>order) - I radioed it in, got permission, they checked in
>"early" with no penalty, and this was not reflected in the
>scoring as being early.

I'd hope that they were asked to declare a correct time in when they checked in early ... giving them a stage start time before they 'checked in' on paper ...

(can your program handle that JG?)
 

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RE: April fool ?

We discussed that. If we had done that, their stage start time would be before their arrival time (negative CAST in the control zone). We used time of day in, and 2 minutes later for start time. Thus their ATC arrival was "early" and that is how I knew that JG has an over-ride, because there was no penalty there.

>I'd hope that they were asked to declare a correct time in
>when they checked in early ... giving them a stage start time
>before they 'checked in' on paper ...
>
>(can your program handle that JG?)

press on,
 

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RE: April fool ?

>We discussed that. If we had done that, their stage start
>time would be before their arrival time (negative CAST in the
>control zone).

Since it is a known anomoly ... it would have worked for me and woudl have been what I would have requested as a Clerk of the Course.
The question that arises is how Jean George's program deals with this.
 

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>Good for you Alex, hope you will enjoy it...You will see what
>I mean
>The US are light years behind EUROPE when it comes to running
>rally's
>Timeing and organizeation...Rallying was getting good over
>there until SCCA ruined it. NASA are puting on a good show so
>far. Keep on trying.


I think in all the events we ran this year (SnoDrift, 100AW, STPR, OFPR, and LSPR) there were only only 3 thrown stages.

1 at SnoDrift due to the Force Majuere debacle
1 at 100AW due to drunken hillbillies
1 at STPR for reasons I forget, which actually wasn't thrown per se.

Ojibwe and LSPR went like clockwork and I honestly don't know that Andy ever had to walk into a control more than a handful of times.


So, which is to say, I'm not sure things are as dire as you may recall from your last experience here.

Do most European events have cell phone coverage at stage starts/ends?
 

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No stages thrown at 100AW.....1:45 delay, but not thrown! Hillbillies jailed for the evening, by the way.

Kim DeMotte
Official Old Fart, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
RE: April fool ?

>>We discussed that. If we had done that, their stage start
>>time would be before their arrival time (negative CAST in
>the
>>control zone).
>
>Since it is a known anomoly ... it would have worked for me
>and woudl have been what I would have requested as a Clerk of
>the Course.
>The question that arises is how Jean George's program deals
>with this.

A stage start time can be before arrival time. When there is a car waiting for is time to enter the zone and the zone is empty, the check point can waive the competitor in the zone, enter the correct due time and write the next available start time. The start time can be anytime since it's a neutral zone.

Sorry but it is so evident for me that I do not express my though the right way. I will ask my question again to make sure it does not look like April fool.

George
 
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