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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Can anybody give me complete details and descriptions of the Quebec studded tires rules? I would like to know the number of studs allowed per inch across the tire or down the tread, or how many studs per tire are allowed, or whatever the rule is. Also, I would like to know exactly what is allowed to be used for studding material, and how big diameter-wise and length-wise each stud is allowed to be protruding from the tire. Are there any rules about how the studs are inserted in the tire? Do they only stick into the tread, or do they go right through into the carcass of the tire (like they do for ice racing)?

What are the rules and classes for the vehicles that are allowed to run the studded tires? I heard it was 2wd cars that are not competing in the National events, but other than that, I don't have any details. Is it Group 2 cars, Open or only Production classes?

Any and all specifics would be appreciated.
 

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they only akowd one type of tire....

"Nokian hakkapeliita 1 munis de clous DOT de spécification numéro 11"

DOT studs specification number 11...


It was only for the regional racer....in Quebec you cant race in both championship in the same rally...

the Coupe du Quebec is now 2WD only......4wd can do the regional but cant make point.... and i dont think a 4wd car in regional can use studed tires ??


Alain Lavoie
24Rallyteam
http://www.abikeonline.com/24rallyteam/
 

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If I can remember correctly ..... If you look at a box of regular street car studs they are numbered - 11 means 11mm in length (I think).

I may still have a box of studs in the garage somewhere and could look for them before the Rallywest AGM (which I assume is why you're asking) :p

Shawn
 

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Dave

Reading between the lines, are you thinking about a rule change to allow studs at regionals? If so don't exclude the Justys like they have done in Quebec, stupid rule, the cheapest cars, lowest budget Quebec teams have been excluded from running in their own regional championship. . . .
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Obviously the Justy doesn't have enough power to even stay ahead of the steamroller that just went through Quebec!

It's a good thing you mentioned this, Martin. I'd forgotten you have a rally car with a hamster wheel and 4wd. Will your car still have enough power to turn its wheels if you stud the tires? :p

Not to worry, Martin. I'm thinking along the lines of Quebec's rule, but just not making it one class. The regionals will still count all the classes, but just that studs will be allowed in the regionally-only competing vehicles. Or maybe we should invent one regional only class that will allow studs, like a PU car with studs, call it the PUS class, and the winner of the class will be known for an entire year as the Western Canadian PUS HEAD!! :7
 

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All joking aside, I'd support studs in a regional only event, in fact the Justy would benefit as it often has too much power (well, just a little bit anyway) for icy conditions! What it doesn't like is mud, all the power gets sucked into it! Make sure to allow all street tyres with street studs rather than dictating a specific tyre thus causing those who already own studdies to be forced to purchase even more.

You sould beware you know, last year we regularly beat P2 and P3 cars with far higher mouse power (and a bonus cylinder) than us. In fact I was a little disappointed that the proposed merger of P1 and P2 nationally is rumoured not to be going ahead.

How goes the MR2 project, I do hope you'll be attaching all the bits securely, I'm sick and tired of avoiding discarded mufflers etc.

BTW, haven't heard a whisper from bezel boy.

Martin

Current WCRC P under champion;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Martin;
Do you know (or can you please find out for me) what the exact rules are in BC for material, size and number of studs allowed to be used in car tires?
I found out today that Alberta has no restriction on the usage of studs in tires and that there are no rules as to material, size and number used. We can do anything.
Given that the WCRC is BC and Alberta, and Alberta has no rules, basically it's up to BC to determine what will be allowed in the WCRC.

The P1-P2 merger is not going ahead this year, but it could happen for 2005 or any year after that.

The MR2 project is not moving currently. A friend is using the vehicle for daily transportation, so we haven't started working on it yet. We still have lots of time. I'm planning on bringing it down for the Rallycross on Saturday, just to try it out.
 

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Dave

From the motor vehicle act:


(3) Subsection (1) (b) does not prohibit the use, at any time between October 1 in one year and April 30 in the next year, of studs that do not protrude more than 3.5 mm from the tread or traction surface of a tire, if

(a) there are not more than a total of 130 studs in the tire if it is a tire for a motor vehicle having a gross vehicle weight of not more than 4 600 kg, or 175 studs in the tire if it is a tire for a motor vehicle having a greater gross vehicle weight, and

(b) no studs are used in a tire on the front wheel of a motor vehicle unless each rear wheel has at least one studded tire, but this paragraph does not apply to a truck with a licensed gross vehicle weight of 9 100 kg or more and which is equipped with a device to allow the installation of a snowplough.

(4) The Minister of Transportation and Highways may, whenever in his opinion the use of tire studs is causing undue wear to a highway or bridge or is hazardous to the safety of those using the highways, by written order published in the Gazette, suspend the application of this subsection with respect to any highway or part thereof.
 

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there is no way that applies on all roads - maybe only highways

many many many cars even the cops are tires with more than 135 studs in the snowy areas - at least where I see I can easily buy tires with more than 135 studs

or else everyone is breaking the law

but since the summer rally tires arent legal either and the rule of thumb is run what ya brung you should just institue a good stud rule based on cross section area (I can supply text if you want stolen right from sweden) and leave it open subject to local laws (which may override in the sups) ?

this way we can do it properly
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Well, it doesn't matter if you buy 135+ if the law says 130. If the law says 130, we can't put a rule in our rule book saying anything over 130.

It's kinda like speeding. When the speed limit is 100, we can't advocate 110, just because everybody does 110.

I went into the main police station here in Edmonton, and asked them about studs. Between the 4 or 5 cops I talked to, THEY didn't even know the exact rules for studs. I wasn't surprised really, because I imagine it's not a big topic of attention for them.

The other rally tires being used that aren't legal is another topic entirely, and I didn't work on that rule, but I'm working on the stud tire rule, so I want it to be legal.

Followup:
I've always accepted the common-held knowledge that the tires must be "DOT Approved" or otherwise approved for use on the road. I've never questioned what the rules were, exactly.

I just went to the Transport Canada website to look up the laws concerning tires for passenger cars. I went to the Motor Vehicle Tire Safety Regulations, 1995, webpage (which, by the way, is http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulations/GENERAL/M/mvsa/regulations/mvts/toc_mtvs.htm), I find that tires must be specified sizes, and have the name of the manufacturer, the size of the tire, the max pressure, the load factors, etc. listed on the side of the tire, and must have tread wear indicators, etc. There's a bunch of requirements that the tire must have BUT I cannot find anything that says the tire must have any marking on it that says it's Transport Canada or DOT approved.

There is a National Safety Mark, but the laws only say IF the tire has the National Safety Mark that it must look like their example, and be a certain size. It doesn't say the tire MUST HAVE the National Safety Mark.

So, perhaps I'm missing something (please correct me if you can), but I can't find anything that says rally tires are illegal for use on Canadian roads.
 

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>Well, it doesn't matter if you buy 135+ if the law says 130.
>If the law says 130, we can't put a rule in our rule book
>saying anything over 130.

Seems you are trying too hard. If you want to allow studded tires, just write the rule to say studded tires are permitted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I would love to just put forth a rule change that says "Studs are permitted". But we really can't do that right now.

Our "connection" with the Transportation departments in the various levels of government right now is "tender". We are about to undergo a lot of discussion and negotiation with them about the legalities of rally cars across Canada (similar to what Quebec is already doing).

Given that situation, and the situation that several of our rallies are treading on soft ground with locals and local authorities, we really can't suggest a rule change to allow anything for studs.
 

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Also, if we allow unlimited studding, bolts, spikes, whatever, then we get into another whole question about speeds, not to mention costs.

Allowing a basic "street" stud would give teams a cheaper solution than tractionizing ice tires for one use only.

Remember that we have to transit through towns and maintain their good will. That won't be so easy if we're ripping up the main street on the way to service.
 

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my point really was that I think 135 is for certain road type use, other roads have lesser limitations

and no not unlimited studding like i said i can propose competition rule text as opposed to road safety act type text (i.e. length, protrusion, diameter, num per circumferential arc, number per surface area, profile, etc.)

i think for future's sake you restrict them on an event level as opposed to overall regionally ? that way we might have a hope of using 'real' studs in the future...
 

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Just for reference, as we recently went through this while debating the legality of gravel tires (in Alberta only).
The only requirements for a tire to be street-legal in alberta is for it to have visible tread depth, basically just outlawing slicks.

This is from Const. Colin Armstrong of our Club. Dot or transport canada have nothing to do with it. Again, alberta only.

-Eric
President, Calgary Sports Car Club
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Pat;

I would appreciate seeing anything you can give me on how the other countries and events have their stud rules written. Although I can't say we could or would want to adopt all their rules, it would give us a lot more info to go on, and maybe we could use some of it.

I don't want to see stud rules being delegated to the event level. It would cause more needless work and confusion for the event organizers. Also, it potentially would cause a lot more work and cost for the competitors, who would have to keep adapting to different rules at each event.

I want to standardize it at the regional level (and maybe someday at the national level).

As I mentioned before, though, we cannot bring in any rules that contravene any highway traffic acts. That's simply not good business, in an era where motorsports already has a black eye with the general public (who already falsely associate us with street racers, fartcan mufflers and boombox stereos). Not following the highway traffic act in the past is now causing us a lot of problems in trying to "legalize" the rally cars we have now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Eric;
The provinces and the feds both have highway traffic acts which apply to each province in Canada. Usually the provincial highway traffic act refers to the federal highway traffic act.

In the case of tires, in the new Alberta Traffic Safety Act, section 59(3) reads that it is an offence to:

"Drive / operate passenger car with pneumatic tires not
complying with federal regulations"
 

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hmm interesting

anyhow I will send you the stud info by email

but... (this is all my opinion)

we already have A LOT of rules that ALREADY create some possible issues (more in some provinces than others) - as i have mentioned in another thread there is a reason i am familiar with the BC code on legality of equipment etc I have fought and won (and lost twice) many cases of "Install equipment contrary to MVA..."

now I understand that of course we would not want to add fuel to THAT particular fire, but I can tell you this from a tire test that I did

the typical 'passenger car stud' versus "proper" (EMPHASIS) tractionized ice tire grip is very very close on actual stage roads (which are not, contrary to common driver description actually flat polished ice rink but a little bit variant in surface and usually some soft bit on the edges or in the middle - discounting rally de quebec roads which are actually polished flat grooved due to the stud use)

'recce studs' (which are used in recces in sweden for example) are a level up from 'passenger car stud' and are essentially a mich c5 with small but effective studs, is reasonable for grip but the studs will fall out after like not very much kms

'rally studs' are another thing all together, the stud will last longer so for example you can make it back to service with studs still in it

anyhow, the point being, you could have the rule permit the real studs 'where permitted by local laws' or something - because once people invest in a certain direction we will be stuck with it for a long time. In other words, it becomes harder to change it later and also expensive for people.

if we are gonna do it we should do it right - for the competition purpose - FOR THE EXPLICIT REASON THAT WE NEED ALL THE ISSUES ADDRESSED. Yes I know we dont want to fuel the fire but like if you make like a stud rule to the lowest common denominator then it will never be quite right. Right now we can group import stuff from scandinavia (like it would only take one container for the whole country) and be ready to go without any development. If you can't use them on a certain BC highway then the organizer should take it out of the transit or else that one is a non-stud rally.

So I would say go for the real deal but leave in the "where permitted by local law" or "subject to local law limitations"

The recce tires might be a good compromise, if you want, but the studs wont last long.

As a final example, we do not have limits on the tires at all for the t-bird, which in essence is actually worse since the roads are not closed, "it is not a race" and is almost less excuseable. I know I have seen tires there worse than anything I have seen in sweden (a specific RX7 and 510 from 1999 come to mind)

-Pat
 

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Dave;

The studded tire rule is loooooong overdue, I remember talking to people about this issue back in the 80's when I started rallying only to get shut out every time by the excuse that Ontario Transport does not allow studds on their roads so no one should have them.

In my view studded tires are a safety issue. Anything that is available to the general public and that will make a car stop faster on any surface (and does not contravene any hiway act rules) should be instituted instead of forbiden, particularly now that AWD-turbo cars are becoming common to the scene and can accelerate at impressive rates but do not have the same capacity to decelerate at those same rates on slipery conditions (not to mention when they are being driven by novices).

I fully understand Pat's argument that these new "studdless" tires are almost as good as studded tires, I believe they are too, however, these new type of tires are more expensive for the beginner than a lower priced tire including the studding (the average retail price for studding in Calgary is about $17 /tire)
For example (based on a common 195-65-15 size);

Khumo winter studdable tire $93 + $17 = $110 x 4 = $440
Kelly winter studdable tire $105 + $17 = $122 X 4 = $488

Blizzac (newer generation studdless) $145 x 4 = $580

I am sure there are a lot more options out there but the point is clear.
in few words and especialy for entry level regional purposes where we should be advocating lower costs the studded tire makes a lot of scense, and no one is stoping those who prefer the studdles tires from using them
I also understand pat's argument that if you are going to allow something new go for the gusto and allow the big studs, in a few word don't go half way do it right.
I would love to say yes to that if we had no transits or we trailered the cars to the special stages with no transits in between but the harsh reality here, in contrast to other parts of the world, is that we are in a non-friendly rally enviroment yet and contraveening the transport laws will be a big mistake.
Also you must take into consideration that when you run those studs on pavement (such as transits) your stoping power diminishes creating another potential PR disaster for our sport.

I believe following the provincial traffic regs makes the best sense (130 studs/tyre max) for these reasons;

a- As you mentioned, we will be dealing with transport authorities in the near future over aother issues and we do not want to be rubbing them the wrong way by advocating rules in our sport that contravene their regulations.

b- A street available tyre will be more accesible thus more affordable for the average novice or sponsorless team.

c- A regular studded tire available to the general public will be a lot easier to police as far as number and size of studs

d- Although specialty studed tires such as the Michelin C5 are light years better than street studds so are WRC cars in general but should be promoting the use of those cars at a regional level? I think not!

Michelin used to give us the C5 already studded sometimes and we had to remove them to be able to use these tires in Canada so I can totaly appreciate why Pat thinks they are the way to go (they were truly beautiful) but also undoable for this country I believe.
I will bring some of the Michelin C5 studs to the AGM so that people can see the difference.

Cheers
Jorge
 
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