Special Stage Forums banner
1 - 20 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
RE: Prescott Forest Rally Fun ????? What did I miss?

Very unexpectedly, I ended up codriving for Bob Pendergrass for the first day, his regular codriver Jonathan is scheduled to start on saturday.

During the drivers meeting Bill told us that the rally date was moved a week in order to miss the deer season, however it ended up being scheduled for the opening day of it. Here's a little side info on hunting in AZ, hunters need to participate in a lottary in order to get a deer/elk licence and due to the huge number of hunters and small number of tags as deer licences are called, most peope don't get drawn for years. The lucky ones who got drawn for this year were up for a surprise, storming cars. As you can guess, we didn't make any friends amongst the hunting community here in AZ.

Those who know me, know well that i'm not out to make friends, i'm out to get the job done, but I'd hate to make enemies armed to the teeth with high power rifles a night before the hunting season opens.

Here's the skinny on why the first stage had to be run as transit. Upon arriving to the stage we were informed that there was a slight delay because there were 3 hunters' trucks that were being escorted out of the stage, eventually 2 of them came out within about 30 minutes. We voiced our concern about the possibility of coming head to head with a hunter in a truck or an ATV in the stage, Bill told us it was up to us to sign a waiver and run the stage as a transit, furthermore, he added that even if only one driver didn't sign the waiver, the stage would be hot and the times would be posted. As expected, that idea didn't go well with any of us. We came up with the idea of sending another sweep through the stage which would cause a delay of no more than 10 minutes, but to our surprise that idea got vetoed by Bill for reasons beyond my understanding.

You can imagine the frustration level rising for all the parties involved, rallyists, organizers and hunters. Accordingly we ended up losing 25% of the special stages.

Second stage was delayed aswell due to hunters, again. At the service area we had the pleasure of meeting some drunk hunters who were willing and trying to pick a fight with anybody they were close to them and were not wearing camouflage.
Let me tell you something, picking a fight with a drunk man armed to the teeth is not my style.

Third stage started with a delay, again, Did I mention that I had to chase down the marshall to get my time ?????

Fourth stage; guess what, yet another delay, those hunters, again.

The remainder of the rally, meaning the final transfer stage, in which we misteriously ended up losing our left rear wheel on a right hander and while putting the spare on the truck slipping off the jack and landing on my pinky, was uneventfull.

I confess, I was scared that the truck was going to backfire and the hunters were going to open fire on us thinking that we were shooting at them. I'm not kidding.

So obviously I missed the fun. Those who did not, please share it with me so that I don't feel bad.

By the way Bill the phone number for the Arizona Game and Fish department is (602) 942-3000 if you ever need to check when the hunting season starts for future reference.

God ! I can sense the flak coming.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,738 Posts
RE: Prescott Forest Rally.

Go Andy! This is unbelievable. OK, it's a CLUB rally, but, if AV Sport can beat Subaru works teams on Pro rallies and they let Andy go out and win his first Club rally, what other secret weapons does Mr Workum and his team have up their sleeves? I think Prodrive had better think again. DR, you may want to bring in PW to run your show for you! Seems he has the right formula.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
281 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
RE: Prescott Forest Rally Fun ????? What did I miss?

you should probably get all of the facts first... If you did not have fun maybe it was your frame of mind...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
By all means Bill enlighten me and let me know which facts I'm missing. Would you happen to refer to the mistakes on the road book perhaps? I missed those facts on purpose.

I was in the best frame of mind. Otherwise I wouldn't be there.

Please don't take my comments as an insult. If you can't stand constructive criticism, you will never be able to correct the mistakes you made. But don't insult our intelligences by trying to make it look like all was peachy and we didn't have a big SNAFU on friday.

BTW we were all ready to run the first stage hot if you have agreed to send another sweep.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
281 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
>By all means Bill enlighten me and let me know which facts
>I'm missing. Would you happen to refer to the mistakes on
>the road book perhaps? I missed those facts on purpose.

no route book is perfect. The prescott book has always been light on instructions. No one else mentioned any mistakes (though that does not mean there were none) when in the past it has been mentioned, this year it was not. NO event has a perfect route book.

>
>I was in the best frame of mind. Otherwise I wouldn't be
>there.
>
>Please don't take my comments as an insult. If you can't
>stand constructive criticism, you will never be able to
>correct the mistakes you made.

it is not constructive if you do not offer a plausable solution to the issue at hand, it is just criticism...

> But don't insult our
>intelligences by trying to make it look like all was peachy
>and we didn't have a big SNAFU on friday.

I never said all was peachy, things were rough getting started, but everything started to fall into place, and people ran the event and had a good time. I am sorry you didn't, but you can't please everyone all of the time... Ramada Express is coming up, and they throw a great rally, maybe you can run there and have a better time...


>
>BTW we were all ready to run the first stage hot if you have
>agreed to send another sweep.

the other sweep you are referring to was the 999 car, and he was supposed to be at the back of the pack (he is there for a reason). There was no one on stage, all blocks were in place, everything was set to go, the competitors (and not all of them mind you) chose not to run that stage, not me. Speak with your fellow competitors about the decisions you made on stage 1. It was ready and hot, and EVERYONE on the organizing committe was confident. You (and some other competitors) did not feel comfortable, fine, I called the stage hot and said if you don't feel safe go slower. Still no start, still uneasy feelings by some competitors, fine, it is your race, if you want to transit then transit, YOU canceled the stage, I simply complied with your wishes. I gave you what you all were asking for. Don't jump on me for it... The word I got from the start of stage 1 was that all 24 competitors wanted to transit, so I let you. When I spoke to some teams at service I found out that it was not all 24, and by some counts much less than half, and some were VERY adamant about WANTING to run, and not new commers mind you, experienced people, that I would trust with my life. Had I known that I WOULD NOT have transited that stage... hindsight I guess... The rest of the event went off well, with some delays and changes, but everyone adapted and overcame them. The vast majority had a good time on some great roads, so my goal was accomplished... Again I am sorry you had a bad time...

edit: bad spelling, it's been a while since i slept... :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
RE: Prescott scores and news...

>no route book is perfect. The prescott book has always been light >on instructions.

So it's OK to continue a tradition and make a bad book. I'm not talking about light on instructions, I'm referring to wrong tulips, give the other competitors some time to get back home, they will tell you the same thing. By the way I don't remember any mistakes on the RIM book.

>it is not constructive if you do not offer a plausable solution to >the issue at hand, it is just criticism...

Ok for the record here is the solution I am offering, CALL THE GAME AND FISH NEXT TIME. If you can't call them, call me I'll call G&F.
Is it constructive now ?

>Ramada Express is coming up, and they throw a great rally, maybe >you can run there and have a better time...

You bet I will run Ramada.

>the other sweep you are referring to was the 999 car, and he was >supposed to be at the back of the pack (he is there for a reason). >There was no one on stage, all blocks were in place, everything was >set to go, the competitors (and not all of them mind you) chose not >to run that stage, not me.

I was next to him when the HAM operator told you that we had a concensus and that we were ready to run hot if you were to agree to send another sweep. You told him that you have made the decision to run the stage as transit. So please don't try to tag it on us, we ran the stage as transit because of you.

Oh well, that's what I had to say. Better luck next time I guess.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
281 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
RE: Prescott scores and news...

>I was next to him when the HAM operator told you that we had
>a concensus and that we were ready to run hot if you were to
>agree to send another sweep. You told him that you have made
>the decision to run the stage as transit. So please don't
>try to tag it on us, we ran the stage as transit because of
>you.


There was no other sweep available!!! That sweep is the medical opening sweep. The course closing sweep was too far ahead to turn around and come all the way back down the stage. The roadblocks were holding people that had been waiting for us to start. They would not have waited another 20 minutes (as we were telling them the first car out would be any second now) to sweep properly again and we would have been back at square one. To keep things moving along the call to transit was made. Those are some of the things that you didn't hear on the radio, as we use several frequencies, and the ham you were listening to was only on one.

The competitors wanted it swept again OR to run it as a transit. No sweep=transit...

It does not bother me that the competitors wanted to transit. If they really felt unsafe, let's get the thing going and let them feel safe... If I had called the stage hot and some would have ran it slower than normal (assuming no second sweep) would you still be upset? Seems like a no win situation, so I'll just leave it at that...

People had fun, the volunteers had fun, some spectators and photographers had fun, even some hunters had fun watching us go by... all in all not a bad weekend for what was handed to us.

We moved the date per the Forest Service, as they said they would block our permit as our November date was the start of hunting season and to use the last weekend in October. I don't question the head of permits for the Prescott National Forest. Now I will... thanks for the G&F number, and the offer to call. Can you call them in the next few days and e-mail me ([email protected]) the start dates of the various hunting seasons for next year, we are thinking of using October 3-4. Can you also check on the Goss Hawk nesting season when you call them, we've had that issue in the past as well. Thanks for helping make next year better...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,738 Posts
RE: Prescott scores and news...

As has been pointed out to me many times, the Route Book is a guide and NOT a be all-end all for competitors. Not all instructions can be 100% accurate as hard as we try. I for one am tired of the bitching that goes on from competitors who, to my knowledge, have not organized or even volunteered to help organize a rally here in the US. Until you get up there and organize your own event, boy, would I like someone to put on a perfect event (not holding my breath on that one)and we'll see how you do. Lets see some new names on the Organizers list next year with new events. Stop criticising, step up to the plate and show us that you can do better. Bill and his fellow Organizing team worked their butts off to put on this event for your pleasure. I don't remember you saying thank you for putting on the event either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
145 Posts
RE: Prescott scores and news...

Ha Bill THANKS FOR YOUR HARD WORK ON THE PRESCOTT RALLY!!! You and Mike and all the rest of AZ Rally Inc have keep this rally alive good job. Yes maybe the hunting thing was not the best but I bet thats on the list to ask next time. Maybe it would have been nice of the USFS to say " Ha thats hunting time up on the roller coaster how about another week" BUT THAY did not thats life!! You have pulled this off one more time this is only three rally now and you will get better and better as you go. I could not run my home rally this year. Running all the stuff you have to get none is MUCH harder then racing a car!! My hats off to AZinc. You know I get alot of seat time up on the roads here. Get with me Ive got my notes on most of the roads up here. Ha know one is up set on the roads being to rough and next time it will be even a better rally and some one will be upset thats life. You did good!! your best!! Thanks to all at AZRally inc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
RE: Prescott scores and news...

There's no need to call G&F the info you need for next year is at
http://www.gf.state.az.us/frames/regs/index.html
From there click on the 2002-2003 regulations.

You will have to scroll down to find the dates and the sections on the map that the dates correspond to, it shows you not only the deer season, but the migratory bird, upland bird, mountain lion and varmint aswell, so your concerns about the Goss Hawk nesting season would be answered there too.

Let's hope we'll have a better rally next year and if I can help in any way, please don't hesitate to contact me.

For those who are not familiar;

Even though I have never participated in the organization of a rally in the US that doesn't mean I have never been involved in the organization of a European Championship event that just got added to the World Rally Championship for 2003 so I have an idea or two about how it's done. I just don't think it would be appropriate to organize and race at the same time.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
RE: Prescott scores and news...

>There's no need to call G&F the info you need for next year
>is at
> http://www.gf.state.az.us/frames/regs/index.html
>From there click on the 2002-2003 regulations.
>
>You will have to scroll down to find the dates and the
>sections on the map that the dates correspond to, it shows
>you not only the deer season, but the migratory bird, upland
>bird, mountain lion and varmint aswell, so your concerns
>about the Goss Hawk nesting season would be answered there
>too.

Wow. I'm sure that all that info on the website is 100% accurate. Heaven knows that people don't make mistakes, and it couldn't be possible that the info there might be just as wrong as the info given to Bill by an actual employee of Game & Fish. Thanks for the help, it's been invaluable.


>
>Let's hope we'll have a better rally next year and if I can
>help in any way, please don't hesitate to contact me.

You could have helped this year by not posting how bad a rally it was, and instead thanking Bill for all the work he did, even though it didn't come off quite up to your high standards. I guess you made up for that by not thanking them later on in your posts either though.

>
>For those who are not familiar;
>
>Even though I have never participated in the organization of
>a rally in the US that doesn't mean I have never been
>involved in the organization of a European Championship
>event that just got added to the World Rally Championship
>for 2003 so I have an idea or two about how it's done. I
>just don't think it would be appropriate to organize and
>race at the same time.
>
>Cheers
>
>M.Samli

Then since you have gleaned such great knowledge and experience, why did Bill have to even put up with very unconstructive criticism? I would think that you, having been in his shoes and all, would understand that not everything comes up roses, and you can't please everyone all the time. On top of that wouldn't you have thought back to that time when you were organizing or helping to organize rallies and someone could say nothing nice about your event and it felt like a kick in the gut after all you had been through to let them play in the woods? I guess you weren't fibbing when you said you weren't out to make friends. Riding an organizer of one of our rallies definately won't garner much friendship around here.

Sorry I unloaded on you with both barrels there, but cut some slack to the guy. He spends a lot of time trying to get everything just perfect, and I for one have a lot of respect for someone who does that and also has to put up with complainers.

Mike Anderson
85 VW GTI

PS- Sorry I couldn't be there to try and help out a little this year Bill.
 

·
salta motorsports
Joined
·
136 Posts
props to m.samli!

as per the prescott forest rally, well...

it is understandable that rally racing is dangerous... but it becomes downright deadly when organizational skills are lacking.

we will never run this race again, nor will we recommend to anyone in our division or any other division to run this race due to the lack of organization. the kind of carelessness that this race involved was one that we feel put our safety as well as the safety of others at highly at risk.

where to begin... IT WAS HUNTING SEASON!!! more than a slight oversight, never a good idea to send a rocket car down a donkey road with traffic/men with guns. then, of course, there were plenty of delays... so then there WAS speculation of whether or not stage was safe to run? tends to unnerve racers, hunters alike. all of this could have been avoided, just don't know why it wasn't.

the service area was equally disappointing... upon our service crew entering the drake service, they were wished a sarcastic "good luck" by the workers when inquiring about the parking arrangement. what with the scarce ameneties, unruly hunters, and mud bogs, drake service was almost as bad as the crown king service last year.

by the time we finished the 1600 mile round trip back home, all constructive criticism went out the window... no, we're not rally organizers, probably couldn't handle the job, so we don't jeopardize other people's safety, cars, money, time by promoting races. as competetors in each race we expect a certain level of professionalism on the part of the organizers, this includes the local safety steward who decided it would be humorous to try to run us off the road and bright light us during the last transit of night one... we understand now why this is not a pro rally.

feeling had, going to bed, will probably have more to say tomorrow... b moody, driver
e lucero, navigator
l hooper, service
car # 456
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
RE: Prescott scores and news...

I knew I was opening Pandorra's Box.

Yes we all made mistakes when we organized and/or worked rallies but we tried not to repeat the same mistakes and we took all criticism, constructive or not, with gratitude, we used them as a road map for more efficient and precise rallies without letting our bruised ego interfere with the reality.

When you go to a restaurant and after ordering your food wait for half an hour for your soup, which ends up arriving cold, your entree tasting like card board and the waiter treating you like it's your fault, what do you do? Do you put on the apron and run to the kitchen to help the chef then train the maitre d' and thank them for the experience you had and for trying or do you complain ?

If you run to the kitchen, it's your choice.

I complain, and that's my choice.

Sorry I hurt your feelings but it is what it is and I don't think exchanging pleasantries and trying to be politically correct will help anybody correct the mistakes that will potentially be made again and again.

Get a grip people, the bitter receipe works faster and more efficient than schmoozing.

Being an Arizonan, I'd love to see Prescott back in Pro status, I'd love to have a rally that can one day become a part of a much larger championship. If you are too frail to face the reality, if you can't stand seeing how the cow eats the cabbage, count me out, I don't have time to waste. But, If you are ready to take the bull by the horns and run with it, call me, you may not like what I have to say or how I say it but you can be sure that it would never be watered down or sugar coated.

Cheers

M.samli
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
Top