[Trevor Donison]

Anyone that is eligible for a ProRally license should get one.

I think Clubrally/ProRally days of starting in a 4wd are over unless you have a massive amount of motorsports experience. Or are grandfathered in.

It seems like a reasonable extension of the Rim Townhall meeting Clubrally discussion, and the insurance problem with Clubrally that existed before the latest Accident.

 

[RallyKeith]

>Anyone that is eligible for a ProRally license should get
>one.
>
>I think Clubrally/ProRally days of starting in a 4wd are
>over unless you have a massive amount of motorsports
>experience. Or are grandfathered in.
>
>It seems like a reasonable extension of the Rim Townhall
>meeting Clubrally discussion, and the insurance problem with
>Clubrally that existed before the latest Accident.

I'm curious, what does 4WD have to do with it? Is this to imply that a 4WD is harder to drive?

Keith

 

[Jon Bogert]

You know, Keith--AWD means you have 350HP. At least that seems to be the way the rally classes are set up.

Maybe they'll add a low powered ClubRally class for all the <200 HP AWD cars that can't run anywhere else. But I doubt it.

Your Impreza is one of many. Heck, in NEDiv alone we could fill an Non-WRX/EVO/Talon/Alltrac(me) AWD class and have 5-10 entries per event.

Subaru Legacies, RSs, Ls
Audi 4000s, 80s, 90s, 20V Coupes (might have to un-turbo some)
Mazda GTXs
A certain VW Fox

 

[mothra]

Why not ban 2wd cars! Since, no one has proposed it yet. For that matter ban NA cars too! }> }>

 

[MDBodnar]

So what does having a Pro License have to do with running 4wd in Club?

Why does 4wd impact running in club?


I started in a Normally Aspirated Audi 4000 Quattro.

Thought it was a great car to drive. Always had my heart set on PGT and learning 4wd seemed important. I think PGT it is the most fun for my $$$, so far it has proven to be, and my path to it made perfect sense. I have on occasion proven to have learned to drive (both cars) well.

Starting in the AWD car did not make me fast in the turbo AWD car. In fact I think the Talon AWD is harder to drive, but it is a faster car and I am learning to be fast with it. I never crashed the Audi, broke it lots, but never crashed it. I put the Talon on its side in my third event with the car (although when you only run about one event a year I think this was seat time not a pure power issue.) Everyone I knew including me, knew I was more likely to crash the faster car.

Everyone who drives aggressively knows they are more likely to loose a faster more powerful car in a bigger way, than a slower less powerful car.

In any case if Trevor has good reasoning or belief for his statements it is another battle to fight. (AND it would help to back the statements up with some kind of reasoning, rule proposal, a fact of any sort.)

I agree people should not start in high-hp cars, but the need for a Pro license for AWD cars connection does not make sense. And I am really not sure banning newbies from AWD cars of any kind is the answer. Lots of good examples of good drivers that started in AWD -- Joy, Havir, Merril, Bodnar (OK so my name does not belong, but I am sure there are more that do). (Joy never crashed until I think his second season with the evo, Havir 2nd or 3rd season, Merril always crashed, Bodnar once in 8 years-- can't afford to crash...)

The issue should surround schools and licensing of people, not cars or classes.

Mike

 

[Steven D Perret]

Don?t get me started on the Pro vs. Club license thing again. Just getting your Pro license is not an answer to any of the problems!!

How can people believe that you need more experience to drive an AWD then any other car? That just does not make sense..

I think that having a Production and G? AWD Normally Aspirated class would be a big help!

A lot of new people have been raised around current WRC and want to start out with AWD. There is nothing wrong with that!
It seems that if there was an NA class then acceleration and cost may come a little more under control.
Give people a chance to use many of the other chassis out there and still be competitive in a class.

I don?t think that this is a cure for any issues at hand, as this is not the root of the current suspension.




Steven Perret
Car# 226
Driftin4 Racing
[email protected]

 

[Trevor Donison]

>Anyone that is eligible for a ProRally license should get
>one.
>
>I think Clubrally/ProRally days of starting in a 4wd are
>over unless you have a massive amount of motorsports
>experience. Or are grandfathered in.
>
>It seems like a reasonable extension of the Rim Townhall
>meeting Clubrally discussion, and the insurance problem with
>Clubrally that existed before the latest Accident.

Edit: Make that 4wd Turbo. The 4wd's without turbo are faily mild compared to the first 7-8 cars on the road at the typical ProRally. But what keeps me from buying a WRC car from ProDrive after I win the lottery?

This is purely a prediction. I've not talked with anyone in SCCA.

 

[MDBodnar]

Nothing stops you from buying the super car.

Have you not proven you are worthy?

Do we need to take your Pro license back?

What should stop someone from competing in a high hp car is lack of self control, no knowledge of the rules, a demonstration of red-mist, really poor car control. (We can all name drivers/teams that have demonstrated any or all of these issues.)

From what I know the track boys have a pretty good licensing system with a written test and a driving test. Requires I think two weekends. Anybody that can past that test with their given car is likely to do OK.

Let's quit with the speculation and draconian nonesense and send the PRB a licensing proposal.

Trevor I have seen you eloquently assemble good suggestions -- get on it boy, your a good man to help prevent potential problems. Put the fingers to the keys and send it to the PRB. Want our comments post it here too and you'll get and earfull.

Someday maybe I'll see ya in the woods.
Mike

 

[RallyKeith]

>Edit: Make that 4wd Turbo. The 4wd's without turbo are faily
>mild compared to the first 7-8 cars on the road at the
>typical ProRally. But what keeps me from buying a WRC car
>from ProDrive after I win the lottery?
>
>This is purely a prediction. I've not talked with anyone in
>SCCA.

Wow man. What matters is NOT if you have a turbo, or if you have 4wd or not. It is a combination of power and # of wheels driven. Just becuase you have turbo doesn't mean anything. I have a turbo Subaru and guess how much power it makes. 118hp. I guess that is to much power to start out. You need to think before you speak. The bottom line is that people with no racing history with the SCCA should be able to start rallying in a car with more than X hp if its 2WD, or Y hp if it's 4WD. You're more dangerous in a 200hp RWD car than in a 200hp 4WD car anyday or the week, unless you have experiance.

With the "affordability" of high power cars these days I do se a serious need for more lower power classes to level out and make some real compitition.

Keith

 

[Trevor Donison]

>Nothing stops you from buying the super car.

True. I think my current car is a good car, but a far cry from a super car. All I could do at Rim to keep from getting stuck, and the big boys were still racing pretty fast.

>Have you not proven you are worthy?
I have driven 30+ Pro Events, and proven that I'm not going to crash my car every other event.

>Do we need to take your Pro license back?
Not unless I crash 4 events in a row, with a repair cost over $5000 each time.

>Let's quit with the speculation and draconian nonesense and
>send the PRB a licensing proposal.
>
>Trevor I have seen you eloquently assemble good suggestions
>-- get on it boy, your a good man to help prevent potential
>problems. Put the fingers to the keys and send it to the
>PRB. Want our comments post it here too and you'll get and
>earfull.

I don't think my solution would be appreciated very much. I've driven both 2wd and 4wd and know the pluses & minuses for both.

From a safety standpoint, I do think 2wd car with a horsepower max of say 200 horsepower would be a good thing for newer drivers. Plus it would put a bunch more well prepared 2wd's out there for new people to get into the sport cheaper. (assuming quite a few drivers would switch to a 4wd turbo when they could)

>Someday maybe I'll see ya in the woods.
>Mike
I'll be at LSPR & Ojibwe this year, so perhaps.

 

[perodi]

TD et al.,

Limiting horsepower and/or number of driven wheels is not an
appealing way to gradually bring in new drivers. Where will
these lower horsepower (not that 200hp is all that low) cars
be placed? Group 2? Maybe their own newbie class? I propose
that they start in Production Class. That way they learn in
slower/safer cars AND can fit into the current class structure.
After reaching a given SpeedFactor, then they can move onto
G2 or G5 or PGT before reaching a second given SpeedFactor that
let's them run an Open Class car. In many cases, the Production
car can be upgraded to G2 or G5. That has the potential to
make moving up in class cheaper than buying a new car at each
step.

My $0.02,
Patrick Rodi

P.S. Don't we have this same discussion every few months???

 

[fieldthis]

Let's also keep in mind that this latest accident was not a seed 8, but a seed 3. Proof that it can happen to anyone!

Rob

 

[RallyGTX]

I don't even *WANT* a 'Pro' license if I have to tolerate all the politics that goes with it.

I'd much rather pay half-price to run the same roads and skip all the BS, thank you very much.

The car involved in the accident at Sawmill was driven by a Seed 3 driver with years of experience. It was just that, an accident.

Not *all* cars that are AWD have in excess of 350 hp. My GTX is being limited (by ecu programming) to about 220 hp, not because I don't want to go any faster, but because I *DO* want to finish events and *EVERYONE* knows that Mazda transmissions are made of 2 things: Spaghetti and Replacium.

The sweeping 'generalizations' about 'this is safe' and 'that isn't' are completely ridiculous.

Getting insurance is *NOT* the problem. As evidenced by the fact that several events have gotten 'alternate' insurance and are going ahead as planned.

Matt Manspeaker
Seattle, WA USA
89 323GTX - OPEN
97 Escort Cosworth - WIDE OPEN

 

[jandreini]

And we all know that Replacium is made from Unobtanium.