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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I hijacked my own comment from another thread. Are you aware that the PRD is the final authority for all rules (not the PRB)?


2003 ProRally/ClubRally Rules:

"1.2 Administration

A. Performance Rally Department

The Performance Rally Department (PRD) shall be responsible for the development of the rules and standards for the conduct of Performance Rally events and shall establish, supervise, and administer an annual program of events. The PRD shall have complete and final authority on the Performance Rally Rules (PRR); their implementation, and standards of conduct before, during, and after an event in the SCCA ProRally Championship, the SCCA ClubRally series, and SCCA RallyCross."


This is page 1 of the rule book. It clearly states the PRD (=Kurt Spitzner) writes the rules, implements the rules, and enforces the rules. Officer, Prosecutor, Defense, Judge, Jury, and Executioner all rolled into one.




How can the PRB think they make the rules, that they are in charge, that they have any power at all to change anything when this rule so clearly outlines that all the power and decision making resides with the PRD.

PRB: prove me wrong, change the rule, and do so immediately.

Thanks,
Mike
 

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Mike,

It is a well known fact that the PRD has final authority. That's the reason most people are constantly at odds with PRD specifically, and usually less likely to bash on the PRB on things, their hands are virtually tied to represent us, the membership, in a true representative fashion. The problem is, if it were possible to vote out the PRD (his recent contract renewal had a non-termination clause, it's rumored), he would simply be able to overrule that. It is a true dictatorship with a false representative overlay.

Interesting catch 22 we find ourselves, the membership, in the middle of.

Come on in NASA, USAC, et al, it's a market-driven business! Sanctioning is bought from the lowest bidder with the least amount of political strings-attached.

CP
 

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>Come on in NASA, USAC, et al, it's a market-driven business!
> Sanctioning is bought from the lowest bidder with the least
>amount of political strings-attached.
>
>CP
If politics means be able to vote on anything, you are correct that there appears to be none in NASA or USAC. Or NASCAR too for that matter. You can at least vote for regional and national board members in SCCA. And according to the rules (available on the web site) you can even petition for voting on rules in the SCCA.
Richard Miller
 

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>>The problem is, if it were possible to vote out the PRD (his
>recent contract renewal had a non-termination clause, it's
>rumored

Tell us more. I had heard that his contract expired at the end of this year. Now you indicate they've renewed it?
 

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I had heard from a couple people (unfortunately, I can't remember who now) that his contract was renewed late last year with this clause in it. Not sure how long the contract was good for.

CP
 

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I should clarify, when I said politics, I was referring to how the SCCA wants to have this hand-in-the-cookie-jar approach toward promoting events that should be promoted by the organizers who in turn should be able to turn a profit. As a sanctioning body, the SCCA is just that, and insurer and provider of rules based on the particulars of that insurance. The SCCA has hijacked the business of promoting and profiting, in essence leaving the organizers (the ones who do all the work, mind you) to flail about with little to show for their efforts or even debt.

NASA has vocally taken a hands-off approach to sanctioning and hopefully it will stay that way.

CP

EDIT: typo
 

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Herein lies the problem.......

Matt Manspeaker
Seattle, WA USA
89 323GTX - OPEN
97 Escort Cosworth - WIDE OPEN
 

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Yes, actually, I knew that. I think it sux. My dad and his team mate got pitched from the 1972 Sebring 12 hour due to a rule like that. "Cars will start at the discretion of the stewards". He wasn't a big name, so other big names that didn't qualify got to start. I definitely agree that that rule should be stricken. I think I whole lot of people, myself included would feel much better. I was under the impression that Kurt was hired as a marketing person. Why does he have final say in rules makeing? The two are mutually exclusive. One would hope anyway.


Nick Polimeni
www.odysseyhouseonline.com
 

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Does it matter how long he stays? The longer he does, the more people will leave.
 

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Hey Mike,

There was a fight over this....but I am not sure the PRB showed up...

OK, I apologize to the PRB; I think they are OK folks. But, they have either been neutered or did not fight for power in this situation. It was a mistake for the greater rally community that this happened, in my opinion.

Mark B.
 

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>I should clarify, when I said politics, I was referring to
>how the SCCA wants to have this hand-in-the-cookie-jar
>approach toward promoting events that should be promoted by
>the organizers who in turn should be able to turn a profit.
>As a sanctioning body, the SCCA is just that, and insurer
>and provider of rules based on the particulars of that
>insurance. The SCCA has hijacked the business of promoting
>and profiting, in essence leaving the organizers (the ones
>who do all the work, mind you) to flail about with little to
>show for their efforts or even debt.
>
>NASA has vocally taken a hands-off approach to sanctioning
>and hopefully it will stay that way.
>
>CP
>
>EDIT: typo
One of these organizations is a not for profit corporation and one is a for profit corporation to the best of my knowledge. Which is which?
Richard Miller
 

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"Not for Profit" and "non-profit" really have nothing to do with actual cash profit, if you do it "right". I believe the ledger was just published, and ALOT of people made a HUGE profit. No difference than a corporation in my eyes. The 2 sanctioning bodies can co-exist very well, they offer different things to different people.


P.S. Shennan- e-mail me [email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The rule clearly incapacitates the PRB.

The rule makes the PRB a nonfunctional entity.

With the rule in place we all waste countless hours petitioning the PRB, making recomendations to the PRB, discussing the pros and cons of various situations with the PRB.

The PRB will prove that they are not empowered by not removing the rule, or not being able to remove the rule.

These are intelligent people, but so long as the PRD holds the trump card they are powerless to act on behalf of the rallyists.

How can the PRB not be disgusted with this rule?
How can the PRB genuinely think they are making strides for the betterment of the sport with this rule in place?

Until this rule is removed, we would all be better addressing all correspondence to the PRD directly or the BoD directly. The PRB has no power to enact anything.

WAKE UP PEOPLE -- it is your club, the members club, with this rule in place we as a club have somehow elected a group of people who hired a group of people and then gave them final authority over the club. How are we all so stupid as to be paying members of a club that is run by a group of people who does not have to answer to the paying members. 65,000 people blindly sending money to pay people for what?

Unfortunately the PRB is going to prove that they are non-functional by doing nothing about this rule. I have not figured out how or what effort I will make to solve this problem, but if there is a solution I will eventually find it or become so disgusted that I no longer participate in the SCCA in any capacity. If as a member I cannot work with other members of the club to guide its direction, there is not much point in being a member. There is far less point in taking time out of my life to work to improve anything when in the end I will have no choice but to take directions from the paid administrative staff.

Disenchanted and Disgusted,
Mike
 

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It says Performance Rally Department, not Performance Rally Director, which is Kurt's official title.

So. The question now is, who makes up the Performance Rally Department? I know that Doug and Sue Robinson are part of that department; not sure where the Performance Rally Board falls here. Are they part of the department, and if not, why not??

Lots of confusion abounds in the Performance Rally rule book...

I have this visual of Doug, Sue and Kurt sitting around in some Topeka pizza parlor deciding the fate of the rules over a couple beers and greasy pepperoni pizza.... scary... don't we call that a dictatorship?? A triumverate??

KT
kd7yct
 

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It would have to be a reeeeaaaaalllllly big pizza. According to Bruce, Kurt is still in Colorado and just phones in the job. Now if I could just get my employer to let me live where I want....

Kent Gardam
 

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Ahhh once again clarity from Comrade Tabor

>It says Performance Rally Department, not Performance Rally
>Director, which is Kurt's official title.

Once again Thanks for bring to the lumpen-prole-le-ralliat clarity when all these people use all these goddamm acronym things.

Can't for Clarity's sake all you folks just write out the proper name Spitzner, or the title more properly "der Spitzner"or the rather unwieldy but oh so exact "the horribly ironically mis-named Spitzner", or the rather revvealing "PRDood" to differentiate between the person and the Department. That is specially appropriate since that was the alleged expertise that got him hire in the first palce and which he failed miserably, no _shamefully_, but not surprisingly.

So how about this: Call the _person_ if you can't bring yourself to use his name by the personal pronoun: The PRDood?
OR, as befits the thinking of the man who said and I quote "You can't have the lunatics running the asylum" closet grandiouse visions,
call him OHK and the department OHL, which for you folk who for some reason never read your history in school, Oberste Heeres Kommandant, and Oberste Heeres Leitung. (OK! Over-est Army Commandant, and Over-est Army Headquarters, happy now?)

So then we'd have:
PRB Pro Rally Board
PrDood or OHK for Spitzner
OHL for the Departement.


>
>So. The question now is, who makes up the Performance Rally
>Department? I know that Doug and Sue Robinson are part of
>that department; not sure where the Performance Rally Board
>falls here. Are they part of the department, and if not,
>why not??
>
>Lots of confusion abounds in the Performance Rally rule
>book...
>
>I have this visual of Doug, Sue and Kurt sitting around in
>some Topeka pizza parlor deciding the fate of the rules over
>a couple beers and greasy pepperoni pizza.... scary...
>don't we call that a dictatorship?? A triumverate??

"Der Spitzner" said what's needed is a benevolent dictator.....

Those that don't agree should go look at the link posted by the surprisingly astute for a young Volvo driver Nick over on off topic "for Political discussion take 2" as the visions of how things should be established and run is connected to the views one has about the ability of people toward self goverance even in voluntary recreational activities.

>
>KT
>kd7yct
CCCP un-oafish-al Commisar in Charge of Clarifing Perplexities





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
 

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PRB

>So then we'd have:
>PRB Pro Rally Board

ummm, would you believe "Performance Rally Board"?

"Pro" is so restrictive.... The PRB serves all SCCA rallyists, not just the Pros.

(Well, okay, all performance rallyists, not counting those cool TSD road rallyists.... Ouch, my head hurts. "Well then, stop smacking it with a hammer," another little voice tells me. "You can keep it all straight if you try.")

[hr]

Edit: got the words right and the initials wrong!
 
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