Special Stage Forums banner
1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
Went and checked out the Mt. Washington hillclimb road yesterday. Cloudy and 37 degrees at the summit.

While the grade is steeper (avg. 12%), its def. more of a 'rally like' road with some very narrow spots. The Sprongl video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ubWsXgdaJ8) doesn't do it justice. He was just flying! Overall elevation change is slightly more than at PPIHC, but the summit is only 6288.

Who's in? :D

Dave
When do we leave?

Wells had suggested a true Hill Climb series many years ago that included this and a few others. Likelihood today of course is about zip....too bad it would be fun. (and costly)

*Lucky save about 3/4 up! If it had been dirt he'd have been in the ditch drivers left!
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
Is there really a difference enough here to justify 11 classes??!

I admit I'm no fender expert but I gotta believe that they are hoping half of this doesn't even garner an entry....

Pikes Peak Open
Rally America - Open
Rally America - Open Light
Rally America - Super Production
Rally America - Production GT
Rally America - Production
Rally America - Group 5
Rally America - Group 2
Time Attack - 2WD
Time Attack- 4WD
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
Dave, Dave, Dave....as they say in a homicide: follow the money.

Don't you see the headlines? "Audi returns to Pikes Peak!" Albeit not quite the same....

With Audi's cut backs in ALMS and the push to promote more clean diesel tech this is a natural link and one that I'd bet has some corp money behind it also. (if it's all really true) I can see a fleet of Audi support cars, "official vehicles" and such to accompany the hoopla of the run. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday? Maybe not but the race has been struggling for the past ten years for a mfg sponsor and this remains on more way to try and secure it. The VW connection a few years ago was a good way to open the door but there was no logical connection to race history. This promo has that.

Right, wrong or whatever it's business as usual and despite the fact that I agree with your point of view as a competitor...it's not about the racing it's about the business.
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
I agree Dave. The future of PP lies in totally different machinery. Which has been one of my frustrations the past two years- that we've not been given any direction to what those classes could or might be. It's important that the PPIHC begin to define what these classes 'might' be.

There are a host of possible classes to build from; starting with SCCA based sedans to Koni Challenge, to spec based cars such as FM or SRF. (low budgets) For the more experienced and open classes cars such as the one in the ebay link and former Indy car or ALMS hardware however there remains some issue.....like what limitations on build or motors should be expected? I've toyed with some open wheel options the past couple years but be damned if I'll invest hard money in it only to be told it's not eligible! Figuring it takes a couple of years to build a good new machine now's the time to put these things to paper.
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
Im still thinking a champ car is going to be the best bet for a while. V8 turbo Cosworth motors putting 800hp with 850 available under "power to pass." Its already a full aero car, all you would probably want to do is max out the downforce. I momentarily thought about the old turbo F1 cars. But those chassis and the areo would surely be showing their age by now. But champ cars went bye bye in 08. So they are still very "new" as far as that goes.

Most went to Australia I heard. The Panoz cars at least. Not sure on that much hp for the road but the ptp on a straight would be nice....maybe less lower boost for normal time and more boost on the ptp??

One hiccup that is part of my concern...how are you going to meet the roll cage requirements? Are they going to be repealed?? See the build problems here that I speak of? No way would I build an old Champ car with a n/a or turbo motor specific to PP and not have a clear understanding of the roll bar requirements- for a number of years also.

You can't put a roll cage (of any value) inside a carbon tub. Drilling holes and bolting to composite is not wise and building it to fit the bulkheads means you won't fit unless you're a midget. A "free floating" cage might be doable but again making for very tight quarters- tighter. No roll cage? Might meet with some negative response form the ins companies given history. Is it worth spending 75k to hope it passes tech?
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
Time out please.

1. Don't take my comments out of context. My "no way would I build...." comment was edited removing the core. "specific to PP rules etc etc", to mean that building such a car with a ONE RACE A YEAR value is about ZERO on the value scale of owning such a vehicle- given you would have no other place to run it. Plus the cost to produce it combined with no guarantee that in 2012 the rules would not ban such a car make such a build totally stupid.

Sorry...no rant here but if you don't understand the cost to value of such a project that's fine but I think I do. I've reviewed options and proven what can be done in a class. Don't ask me to build a new car...with no ground rules...and then tell me my work would be fruitless.

2. Paul's car and David's car are neither "former Indy cars" in any way! Paul's is a home built copy of a former Wells car (Wally's car) and has some Indy influence to it and help with aero work. David's car is another purpose built car with no history other than hill climbs. Although the main body cowl is taken from a Lola T-600 Forumula Ford. Hardly what one would consider terribly high tech.

There are no open wheel cars with true road racing backgrounds running today. All are hybrid Wells or other home built cars that have been massaged over the years to what you see today. Once paved the first true road racing single seater to show will clean their clock as would be the case in Stock car vs Trans Am cars.

The problem is that all this money and time is being wasted in hybrid cars. Fully paved the complexity of the race will change nearly overnight. Regardless...the problem is not about "what to race" but rather "what is allowed to race".
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
I'm with you Dave. I'd consider such a car also (although at my age not sure how much commitment I'd really put into it any longer) if they'd put publish rules for the class being in perhaps 2012 or such. And I'd want those core rules in writing and firm. The problem would be running the car for testing. I'd probably petition to allow the car to be run in testing (for the fee of course) but not entered in 10 and 11 maybe. Open to anyone producing such a new car or perhaps others in similar situations with new cars etc etc. With no testing allowed without an entry (I tried that) there's not much of a way to really shake down the design. Traditional HC events won't work given road conditions, road racing events won't be ideal due to altitude and grade.
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
No secret my interests are in OW and thus that's my input. (sorry if I sound as if I was ranting earlier btw) The remain two huge hurdles in that class to run any similar design car:

1. Safety cage requirements. Even if allowed or bypassed how would others in the class feel about it?

2. Motor rules. Have you ever looked at how antiquated the rules are in OW for motor/weight issues?? Unless you run a methanol burning push rod motor...your screwed. They are insanely lopsided in penalizing OHC motors and turbo power. This one has been beaten to death and they (in ten yrs) refuse to budge. (sure, maybe with ten entries, but you'd have the other guys up in arms!)

Building a car that can compete in OW is ok but reality is that the only place you could really get away with some of this is in Unlimited. Which from history is where the two top OW cars were to go anyhow. That got skirted way back when mfg money appeared to cloud the waters. OW was not originally about tunnels and such so making a rules change in that class would be tough.

Consider this: you build an ex-Indy car to run or Sports Racer. You enter Unlimited. You meet the rules. You are denied. You petition to run in OW (indy car) and don't meet the rules. They waive the rules for rollover. You competitors are pissed because you don't really belong there anyhow. We can skin it many ways but it's the same bad deal.

I'm all for "proactive" classes. But I don't buy into the "build a car and come race if we can find someplace you fit" format. Put the feelers out now to big classes and clubs for NEW forms of cars for 2012 for example. I don't count as I don't have one of these cars nor would I likely buy one but Koni Challenge is a thought. Adopt an SCCA rules package to pull out parked former TransAM cars. Approach the Sports Racer markets. At the least talk with some owners or players who can toss out some ideas and help shape the future. So far I'm not getting the feeling that's on their radar.
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
Here are some thoughts on what I believe the future of PP could see as classes.

Unlimited:
1. Anything goes.

Rally Division:
1. AWD format
2. 2WD format

Sorts Racer Division:
1. Open design, engine and build rules
2. Under 2.0L class, flat bottom and relate build rules.

Open Wheel:
1. Open design, engine and build rules.
2. Under 3.5L class, flat bottom and related build rules.

Sedan:
1. Stock Car, older TA or GT1 equipment
2. Koni Challenge or similar
3. Mfg comp class or a showroom stock based package

Historic:
1. Former PP cars; all of them. One class. To be eligible the car must have raced previously. Minimal rules enforcement, low entry, no purse. All in good fun to showcase the history of the cars of the past 10-70yrs.
2. Vintage class of sorts based upon groups such as we have now.
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
While I hope they get some entries....I really hope they just get the whole damn thing paved soon. The longer this goes on the longer the future gets dragged out. They always say they are running out of money...well, they're running out of time to run out of money.
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
Little surprised at the construction of 'such wing' given it's inappropriate fit of the Gurney flap/or end rap relative to the underside of the airfoil.

Somebody needs a "gotta minute?". Just goes to show that even good money doesn't mean right.
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
I find it interesting that not only the main photos posted by photographers and fans, as well as this one on the USAC page are almost always in the DIRT. (overlooking the Suzuki pic is about 4yrs out of date?)

You seldom see great shots on the pavement. Kinda sad really.
 

·
Rapidly filling your mirrors
Joined
·
315 Posts
One of the other spectators thought this was dirty pool. I thought it was a good strategy. The Unlimited class top qualifier gets to go first, and makes the call for when the class runs. Had Rhys been the top qualifier, it would have been his call.
I think both. I opted for first in 07, then when it began to rain after 12 changed my mind and opted to go last. So long as you're not in line on the clock there's nothing preventing one from playing the strategy as you see fit. A reward for fast qualy is due. (And not a trophy please)

What I don't agree with was putting the entire field on hold until his run was over. Since when did that become a format? Did it apply to the others behind him? (our internet radio was spotty at best) Nothing like knowing it's going to rain soon and dragging out the show huh?
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top