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1,132 Posts
Potential Group F competitors must sign up on website or contact me
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19 Posts
Also noted is there are two "sign-up" pages. Not sure which is the official one.
http://www.groupf.org/wiki/index.php/Current_events
and
http://www.groupf.org/wiki/index.php/Competitors
I'm signed up on the first one, should I also add myself to the second?
Not like I'm going to be near the top anyways. My goal for rally #2 is to finish both days of competition with no big offs.
-Ben
#675 G2 Protege
http://www.groupf.org/wiki/index.php/Current_events
and
http://www.groupf.org/wiki/index.php/Competitors
I'm signed up on the first one, should I also add myself to the second?
Not like I'm going to be near the top anyways. My goal for rally #2 is to finish both days of competition with no big offs.
-Ben
#675 G2 Protege
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1,132 Posts
Yeah there is a little prize money, I'm still working on that.
Joined
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768 Posts
Geez ... what's with the exclusionist policies:
"teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to enter GpF"
???????
Why are Eric (B) and Bob allowed to enter Group F ?
(if national competitors are not allowed)
Finally an event and class where we (all ?) can come out
and fight it out, and we can't enter it ?
"teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to enter GpF"
???????
Why are Eric (B) and Bob allowed to enter Group F ?
(if national competitors are not allowed)
Finally an event and class where we (all ?) can come out
and fight it out, and we can't enter it ?
Joined
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2,953 Posts
RE: $$$$$!!!
"And prize money? Now I got sumpthin' to fight for."
Lurch
oh, oh Dave, better bring your flak jacket.
rz
"And prize money? Now I got sumpthin' to fight for."
Lurch
oh, oh Dave, better bring your flak jacket.
rz
Joined
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5,777 Posts
Hey Czar, remember the Prole-le-ralliat roots.
I think the Czar has pulled soomething from under his crown, and as oldest and longest advocate of this system, I suggest that the error be revised at the earliest instanse, the class is ALL INCLUSIVE, it's the CARS SPECIFICATION which detirmines its inclusion.
I though it was generally agreed that whatever may be written on a slip of paper in the drivers back pocket was essentially and obviously MEANINGLESS.
How the puck can we push for INCLUSION and brotherhood if we begin by EXCLUDING ANYBODY?
One BIG Class!
One Big Rally!
Bread and land! (oops)
Ivan 'Iskra' Vanlandinghamovitch
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
I think the Czar has pulled soomething from under his crown, and as oldest and longest advocate of this system, I suggest that the error be revised at the earliest instanse, the class is ALL INCLUSIVE, it's the CARS SPECIFICATION which detirmines its inclusion.
I though it was generally agreed that whatever may be written on a slip of paper in the drivers back pocket was essentially and obviously MEANINGLESS.
How the puck can we push for INCLUSION and brotherhood if we begin by EXCLUDING ANYBODY?
One BIG Class!
One Big Rally!
Bread and land! (oops)
Ivan 'Iskra' Vanlandinghamovitch
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
>Geez ... what's with the exclusionist policies:
>"teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to
>enter GpF"
Where did this exclusion come from????
Gee go away for a week and everything goes nuts
I strongly disagree with this distinction. In my view GpF should be all about INCLUSION and cutting across to the existing arbitrary "Pro" / "Club" (quotes added for sarcasm effect) designations
Say it ain't so Jake!
Skye
____________________
F4 Rallysport http://www.rallyrace.net/ - check out my build journal!
GroupF.org http://www.groupf.org/
CCCP Rally Club http://lists.f4.ca/mailman/listinfo/cccp/
Black Rocket Tires http://www.blackrockettires.com/ (coming soon)
>"teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to
>enter GpF"
Where did this exclusion come from????
Gee go away for a week and everything goes nuts
I strongly disagree with this distinction. In my view GpF should be all about INCLUSION and cutting across to the existing arbitrary "Pro" / "Club" (quotes added for sarcasm effect) designations
Say it ain't so Jake!
Skye
____________________
F4 Rallysport http://www.rallyrace.net/ - check out my build journal!
GroupF.org http://www.groupf.org/
CCCP Rally Club http://lists.f4.ca/mailman/listinfo/cccp/
Black Rocket Tires http://www.blackrockettires.com/ (coming soon)
Skye, I think this is just how it's worded on the groupf.org current events page. I think it is meant say instead that there will be no prize for the whole weekend, i.e. national, but only for the individual days. But it does go on to say that if you are in the national only, each day's total stage times will be calculated for you.
It just needs to be reworded. I made a post about this yesterday on the group f forum. This is the exact wording:
"Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner in the divisional rallies. HOWEVER, in order to keep costs down teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to enter GpF. We will simply track the stage times independantly so no additional entry fee is needed."
Again, to me this means that there is no trophy for the national, but if you are in the national, you don't have to enter the divisionals, because we will just calculate the two days' scores for you.
It just needs to be reworded. I made a post about this yesterday on the group f forum. This is the exact wording:
"Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner in the divisional rallies. HOWEVER, in order to keep costs down teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to enter GpF. We will simply track the stage times independantly so no additional entry fee is needed."
Again, to me this means that there is no trophy for the national, but if you are in the national, you don't have to enter the divisionals, because we will just calculate the two days' scores for you.
>
>
>"Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner in the
>divisional rallies. HOWEVER, in order to keep costs down
>teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to
>enter GpF. We will simply track the stage times
>independantly so no additional entry fee is needed."
>
>
What you need to say is:
Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner based on the
divisional rally results. In order to keep costs down you do not need to enter the clubrallies if you choose to enter the national rally; We will simply track the stage times
independently so no additional entry fee is needed.
All: It is not so easy to write rules, help the person doing the work to clarify, always offer a suggestion, don't just highlight the problem.
What is Group F anyhow, and does it equalize P, G2, and G5?
>
>"Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner in the
>divisional rallies. HOWEVER, in order to keep costs down
>teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to
>enter GpF. We will simply track the stage times
>independantly so no additional entry fee is needed."
>
>
What you need to say is:
Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner based on the
divisional rally results. In order to keep costs down you do not need to enter the clubrallies if you choose to enter the national rally; We will simply track the stage times
independently so no additional entry fee is needed.
All: It is not so easy to write rules, help the person doing the work to clarify, always offer a suggestion, don't just highlight the problem.
What is Group F anyhow, and does it equalize P, G2, and G5?
>What you need to say is:
>
>Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner based on the
>divisional rally results. In order to keep costs down you
>do not need to enter the clubrallies if you choose to enter
>the national rally; We will simply track the stage times
>independently so no additional entry fee is needed.
Thanks Mike! I have a call into Jake just to confirm this before I edit that webpage to make it clearer.
>What is Group F anyhow, and does it equalize P, G2, and G5?
You can read all about it at http://www.groupf.org. Basically, it is a competitor-run class open to most normally aspirated 2WD rally cars. It equalizes the cars to a certain extent by requiring a minimum weight based on displacement, and by placing certain technology caps (mainly requiring H-pattern gearboxes).
>
>Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner based on the
>divisional rally results. In order to keep costs down you
>do not need to enter the clubrallies if you choose to enter
>the national rally; We will simply track the stage times
>independently so no additional entry fee is needed.
Thanks Mike! I have a call into Jake just to confirm this before I edit that webpage to make it clearer.
>What is Group F anyhow, and does it equalize P, G2, and G5?
You can read all about it at http://www.groupf.org. Basically, it is a competitor-run class open to most normally aspirated 2WD rally cars. It equalizes the cars to a certain extent by requiring a minimum weight based on displacement, and by placing certain technology caps (mainly requiring H-pattern gearboxes).
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
>>
>>
>>"Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner in the
>>divisional rallies. HOWEVER, in order to keep costs down
>>teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to
>>enter GpF. We will simply track the stage times
>>independantly so no additional entry fee is needed."
>>
>>
>
>What you need to say is:
>
>Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner based on the
>divisional rally results. In order to keep costs down you
>do not need to enter the clubrallies if you choose to enter
>the national rally; We will simply track the stage times
>independently so no additional entry fee is needed.
>
>
>All: It is not so easy to write rules, help the person doing
>the work to clarify, always offer a suggestion, don't just
>highlight the problem.
>
>What is Group F anyhow, and does it equalize P, G2, and G5?
Mike, it doesn't 'equalize' P and Gp2 or Gp2 and Gp5, it 'rationalizes' the ideas of Gp2 and allows in some of the pooor sods who are stuck in Gp5 without a hope in hell against turbocharged motors because they may be say 2550 8 v or 2200 4 valve, and it addresses the absurdity of all the dumb "lobbied in buddy deals" with the multi-vales or 8v push rod nonsense by having a progressive cc to weight structure.
If you recall back when there was an SCCA the rulers making system was a back room underground telegraph buddy deal thing.
When the Gp2 rules were in discussion in 1992, I was faxed a draft for comments and questioned then why all the coefficients, and why the requirements for a 1.05 lb per corrected cc, when Open class turbo 4wd cars had no min weight at all.
The answer from the then National Boss was "There are a lot of Mid-west PGT guys in Eclipses whining that they'll get beat if you don't have a weight rule."
I suggested just having a flat 2000cc (plus rebuild allowances of course) and dropping the unenforcable weight rules, since there were no scales at any event anyway.
Buffum countered "What about Volvo guys with a 2300 8v or non turbo GLH Doodges? and I conceded the point.
And PGT guys were beat even with the weight rules since those Eclipse things are HEAVY and poorly geared.
But the funny co-efficients with 8v and the 0.8 push rod thing was still there and thaty would allow a 3.0 pushrod motor in the same class as a 2000cc thing and that was absurd as we all know, compression being the same, a 50% larger motor will make a sheet load more torque, 1000cc ids 50% or 2000 and so I have agitated for a revision to the rules whenever the chance has come up as it did a couple of times prior to the Dictator's arrival.
Gp222 was the same old thing as I have been pushing forever only this time I asked my friend Derek Bottles to lead the fight/discussion.
There we suggested limiting things to 2000cc flat.
At some point Topi Hynanen wrote in and suhggested that why not adopt the Finnish GpF rules and linked to them and I called Derek and said "Why not?"
So we had an executive central committee meeting and said Sure they make sence.
The simplicity of "IF you have this many cc, then you are going to weight this much" and leaving it to the car owner to decide what degree of trim he's going do the motor is perfect because it doesn't mandate anything, or attempt to juggle too much.
And it addresses the potential torque increases with weight increases.
And it is a proven very successful and popular formula which allows a big variety of vehicles of different sizes and configurations to compete fairly equally judging from the Finnish results.
Turbos are banned since the available Ft/lbs is impossible to detirmine or control where as in normal aspirated it is reasonable easy to predict maximum ft/lbs for a given cc volume and with the limitations of gasoline.
BHP in normal aspirated motors of similar size can be quite variable but the advantage of very high specific output such as that from very high rpm motors is counterbalanced by delivery problems on loose surfaces.
So the idea is a long overdue revision to the old SCCA rules.
Free from any behind the scenes deal making or lobbying, done in public as all rules in voluntary recreational endevors should be.
Now you can call me a "Revisionist!!" if you get pissed at me!
Sorry but those guys who want to drive near stock powerplant cars can figure out what they want to do themselves.
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
>>
>>"Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner in the
>>divisional rallies. HOWEVER, in order to keep costs down
>>teams running the national event will NOT be eligable to
>>enter GpF. We will simply track the stage times
>>independantly so no additional entry fee is needed."
>>
>>
>
>What you need to say is:
>
>Trophies will be presented for the GpF winner based on the
>divisional rally results. In order to keep costs down you
>do not need to enter the clubrallies if you choose to enter
>the national rally; We will simply track the stage times
>independently so no additional entry fee is needed.
>
>
>All: It is not so easy to write rules, help the person doing
>the work to clarify, always offer a suggestion, don't just
>highlight the problem.
>
>What is Group F anyhow, and does it equalize P, G2, and G5?
Mike, it doesn't 'equalize' P and Gp2 or Gp2 and Gp5, it 'rationalizes' the ideas of Gp2 and allows in some of the pooor sods who are stuck in Gp5 without a hope in hell against turbocharged motors because they may be say 2550 8 v or 2200 4 valve, and it addresses the absurdity of all the dumb "lobbied in buddy deals" with the multi-vales or 8v push rod nonsense by having a progressive cc to weight structure.
If you recall back when there was an SCCA the rulers making system was a back room underground telegraph buddy deal thing.
When the Gp2 rules were in discussion in 1992, I was faxed a draft for comments and questioned then why all the coefficients, and why the requirements for a 1.05 lb per corrected cc, when Open class turbo 4wd cars had no min weight at all.
The answer from the then National Boss was "There are a lot of Mid-west PGT guys in Eclipses whining that they'll get beat if you don't have a weight rule."
I suggested just having a flat 2000cc (plus rebuild allowances of course) and dropping the unenforcable weight rules, since there were no scales at any event anyway.
Buffum countered "What about Volvo guys with a 2300 8v or non turbo GLH Doodges? and I conceded the point.
And PGT guys were beat even with the weight rules since those Eclipse things are HEAVY and poorly geared.
But the funny co-efficients with 8v and the 0.8 push rod thing was still there and thaty would allow a 3.0 pushrod motor in the same class as a 2000cc thing and that was absurd as we all know, compression being the same, a 50% larger motor will make a sheet load more torque, 1000cc ids 50% or 2000 and so I have agitated for a revision to the rules whenever the chance has come up as it did a couple of times prior to the Dictator's arrival.
Gp222 was the same old thing as I have been pushing forever only this time I asked my friend Derek Bottles to lead the fight/discussion.
There we suggested limiting things to 2000cc flat.
At some point Topi Hynanen wrote in and suhggested that why not adopt the Finnish GpF rules and linked to them and I called Derek and said "Why not?"
So we had an executive central committee meeting and said Sure they make sence.
The simplicity of "IF you have this many cc, then you are going to weight this much" and leaving it to the car owner to decide what degree of trim he's going do the motor is perfect because it doesn't mandate anything, or attempt to juggle too much.
And it addresses the potential torque increases with weight increases.
And it is a proven very successful and popular formula which allows a big variety of vehicles of different sizes and configurations to compete fairly equally judging from the Finnish results.
Turbos are banned since the available Ft/lbs is impossible to detirmine or control where as in normal aspirated it is reasonable easy to predict maximum ft/lbs for a given cc volume and with the limitations of gasoline.
BHP in normal aspirated motors of similar size can be quite variable but the advantage of very high specific output such as that from very high rpm motors is counterbalanced by delivery problems on loose surfaces.
So the idea is a long overdue revision to the old SCCA rules.
Free from any behind the scenes deal making or lobbying, done in public as all rules in voluntary recreational endevors should be.
Now you can call me a "Revisionist!!" if you get pissed at me!
Sorry but those guys who want to drive near stock powerplant cars can figure out what they want to do themselves.
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
Ok, I confirmed with Jake and posted a clarification on the Group F current events page.
Thanks Mike for the wording, I used what you wrote with a couple of minor tweaks.
Here is what is on there now:
"Clarification: National (ProRally) and Divisional (ClubRally) teams are both eligible and welcome to enter Group F. Trophies will be presented to the GpF winner based on the divisional rally results. In order to keep costs down you do not need to enter the clubrallies if you choose to enter the national rally; We will simply track the stage times independently so no additional entry fee is needed."
Thanks Mike for the wording, I used what you wrote with a couple of minor tweaks.
Here is what is on there now:
"Clarification: National (ProRally) and Divisional (ClubRally) teams are both eligible and welcome to enter Group F. Trophies will be presented to the GpF winner based on the divisional rally results. In order to keep costs down you do not need to enter the clubrallies if you choose to enter the national rally; We will simply track the stage times independently so no additional entry fee is needed."
Joined
·
1,132 Posts
The policy is INCLUSION regardless of whether they hold a fancy liscence or a peasant liscence.
We need the events only to give us the infrastructure we need to run our group F class. We are pretty much doing the rally except doing our own scoring.
It is important to realize that we are all voulunteers and things might not go exactly as planned. I guess that's a lame excuse for me slackking off lately but there have been some pretty serious issues I needed to address just to get here.
Let's run it, as imperfect as it may be, and learn from it.
The weights are going to be tough to do so we are going to have to go by the honor system.
BTW, I had high hopes for a prize fund but that took a back seat. We do have a $100 bucks donated from O+ racing. We will be awarding $50 to the F entrant who ran the fastest times for the stages covered by the Ottawa and the Keweenaw. 50 on Friday, 50 for Saturday.
We need the events only to give us the infrastructure we need to run our group F class. We are pretty much doing the rally except doing our own scoring.
It is important to realize that we are all voulunteers and things might not go exactly as planned. I guess that's a lame excuse for me slackking off lately but there have been some pretty serious issues I needed to address just to get here.
Let's run it, as imperfect as it may be, and learn from it.
The weights are going to be tough to do so we are going to have to go by the honor system.
BTW, I had high hopes for a prize fund but that took a back seat. We do have a $100 bucks donated from O+ racing. We will be awarding $50 to the F entrant who ran the fastest times for the stages covered by the Ottawa and the Keweenaw. 50 on Friday, 50 for Saturday.
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
RE: bob o
Bob,
You've got to run ahead of these GF guys and show that simple subes are more than competitive with these fire-breathing 2wdrivers.
We're counting on you.
(no pressure)
rz
Bob,
You've got to run ahead of these GF guys and show that simple subes are more than competitive with these fire-breathing 2wdrivers.
We're counting on you.
(no pressure)
rz
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