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I didn't compete or do the one-pass notes familiarization pass at Prescott this year, but I heard some anecdotal evidence that some competitors felt that the organizer-supplied notes at Prescott could have been improved e.g. some corners didn't have duration noted i.e. L4 vs. L4 short vs. L4 Lg / Vlg / Xlg

Whilst:
- recognizing that Prescott offered one-pass notes familiarization pass to correct/improve/tailor the notes to your own tastes
- realizing that no notes will ever be perfect and/or suit all teams etc.
- refraining from turning this into any kind of bashfest (definitely not desired)

please post specific instances or areas, preferably giving examples where possible/helpful, where you thought the organizer-supplied notes from the Prescott Rally could have been improved.

If you want to submit your replies anonymously, feel free to PM me or email me (socalrally <AT> gmail [DOT] com), and I'll post your replies anonymously here.

Note: many competitors have responded favorably to the reduced cost of organizer-supplied notes, especially when available in conjunction with single or multiple pass notes familiarization pass. Also, this question could easily have been asked of any other event that offered organizer-supplied notes. My intent here is just to identify any possible areas of improvement w.r.t. organizer-supplied notes.
 

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pressing on tirelessly
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Yes, I'd like to see this query extended to all CRS events with organizer-supplied notes this year. I think that's Desert Storm, Idaho, and Prescott (and maybe HDT? Can't remember.).
 

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R3- into ! L3><
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I definitely agree with (what I'm reading as) the motive behind this thread: improving the organizer provided notes to the benefit of all competitors.

FWIW, for some of the drivers I've ridden with, "lg" at Prescott should've been "Vlg". Likewise, "Vlg" should've been "Xlg"... I'd also like to see improvements on the joining/pacing of consecutive instructions in the Prescott notes, "L5- into R3" vs. "L5- into R3". Asked a few competitors where we could improve them and have several additions/changes written down for next year...those that made it to paper before the afterparty at least. ;) Please feel free to refresh my memory!

There are no egos here. Would really love to get as much constructive criticism as possible so that things can be improved for all. I'd extend that beyond just notes to _any_ ideas for improving the event. I'm sure other organizers feel exactly the same. Um, porta-potties for service are already on the Prescott list. :eek:

In regards to Prescott Rally, if you don't feel comfortable posting comments/suggestions in a public forum, please feel free to get 'em to myself or Michael Taylor.

Brent.

PS: As far as I can recall, HDT was 2 pass self written notes like Gorman???

EDIT: Looked on the shelf & HDT '09 had Organizer supplied Notes. Believe '08 was write your own.
 

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Kevin Welker
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Thanks for starting this movement. The notes quality AND price within CRS is exemplary. The rest of the country sits around and complains about what to do and our organizers just go ahead and DO IT!!

I will grab the notes and go back over our videos and scan any pages that I saw some opportunity for improvement. We made very few modifications during recce but as I get more experienced as a driver and recce driver I see where the art is in making the notes.

Thanks again for being a leader in the "business" of putting on rallys.
 

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This was the first rally I co-drove with provided pacenotes, so my views are very naive, but I know the corner where Odi/Ami went off was marked too fast in the notes. Chrissie told Odi she remembered it being too fast last year and the Irish gents downgraded it as well. I think Odi may have saved a few of us from going off.

I can't remember which exact turn it was, but it was a R5 or R5- I believe.

Other than that, only the R5-<>5- near the finish on Stage 6 was troublesome (but only for Jon and I apparently). That same turn in reverse on Stage 5 is a L4.

This was only my second event, but the notes were awesome other than the two issues above. Thanks Scott Roofing!!
 

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<catchy rally phrase>
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lets not pick on prescott though, last year I thought the notes were great, and I thought so again this year. SOOOO much easier than 'write your own'.

I remember thinking we could upgrade/downgrade a couple different corners but I didn't want to overthink it and make things any more complicated for my newish co-driver.

Sure, the corner we went off on could have been a 4 or 4+, but I also know half the reason for our little venture was me being distracted by all the lovely spectators; at least we put on a show for them! (note to self: next time, don't wave to spectators)

maybe if I rolled and totalled the car my attitude would be a little....different, but we didn't so....
 

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R6 into L6 Into R6
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I have only run two events with organizer supplied notes this year. Desert Storm and Prescott.

This is my opinion and don't take it personal. Desert storm notes were more consistent in rating corners. That said I did wad up my car and 4 other people went off on the same corner. We really had no excuse because we all drove it the day before.

Prescott notes seemed to error on rating corners higher than what they were. There were a couple of 3's that should have been 2 something’s. Also there were several 4's that were technically 3's. I just flat out did not trust the 5's. Several should have been 6's and some should have been 4's (Odi).

Shawn and I changed a bunch of corners because of this. I was even commenting in my leisurely pace right before we saw Odi off that the 5's were tighter than 5's.

I think we will all get better at this as we do Recce more. Practice makes perfect. I think that both events were adequate and better than a route book. Having Recce, it is the team’s responsibility to rate the corners and double check the notes.

Who has a copy of the corner rating chart? I can't find one but I know it’s out there someplace. I try and picture that chart every corner during Recce. I think this chart should be available as a handout before each Recce session.
 

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[email protected] -> Magnetic Tree
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Who has a copy of the corner rating chart? I can't find one but I know it’s out there someplace. I try and picture that chart every corner during Recce. I think this chart should be available as a handout before each Recce session.


Presuming of course that you are talking about the Jemba corner rating system?
 

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Thanks for starting this movement. The notes quality AND price within CRS is exemplary. The rest of the country sits around and complains about what to do and our organizers just go ahead and DO IT!!

I will grab the notes and go back over our videos and scan any pages that I saw some opportunity for improvement. We made very few modifications during recce but as I get more experienced as a driver and recce driver I see where the art is in making the notes.

Thanks again for being a leader in the "business" of putting on rallys.
Thank you Kevin but I just like to note if you guys do not mind...I have to get a exemption and I had to have meetings with JB Niday to allow us to use organizer-notes...he saw what Mike and Paula did for us and he was satisfied but I always have to ask for exemption every time we sanction and that we keep consistency which means the same person doing the notes for any SW RA sanction event...which is okay by me so we make sure Mike and Paula are insured...

But if I may say this...Mike and Paula has a new found respect for P-Sport because it is really tough to do first round stage notes for lets say a 2 day event and she sees why notes cost so much...it took them to do Desert Storm about 4 days...it is ALOT of work and then have someone to double check them after the notes are done.

Not taking away with what you guys are saying...but if I could say that discusss here and also direct any ideas to Mike and Paula at their e-mail address(they do not read ss.com) and they could see what you are talking about for any RA events that do notes, Reno and possible Gorman..I do not know if they did Rally Idaho. Prescott is done by someone else.
 

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My observations

First off its awesome to have Supplied Notes and a recce / 1 pass familiarization !!! And i think having the notes calculated into the entry fee is perfect.

The notes were Consistent which is very important.
I've noticed that the notes for each rally seem to differ a bit from other events. once i learn the style for the event its generally pretty easy to figure out where the road is gonna go.

My "holy grail" of notes i've used was rally Idaho 09. (but i'm noob and i've only done 6 rallies)
My favorite thing about the idaho notes, was that they seemed to find the least wordy way to describe a corner.

4R Xlg<> versus 4R<4+ 40 4+<4 (could just be me)


Prescott notes were good. a few areas to improve. length of corners. there was a few short corners that were not labeled short. and some of the long, or very long, or extra long corners were labeled just as a corner. or long when it could have been

a few corners may have been rated a degree or a +/- too high. but i think just a handful. 1 that i can think of we changed the note from a R5- , that i felt was a R4+ (It also happened to be ! down and slippy) I could ask my nav man for the stage/page of that one i know at least 2 other teams changed that one as well.
 

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I love stage notes. :)

HDT did have the Mike and Paula organizer notes as a base.
Christine and I ran several passes and sharpened, updated, and created the sections that were new. We wrote them as Stage Notes - describing the road, and NOT pace notes - describing how you would RACE it.

From our various years of notes experience, let me say that learning what to do during recce' takes some time. It's a skill, just like reading notes and driving. You are looking for "gotcha's" things in the notes that just don't seem correct. You have to think about where you will be when you crest the hill, how fast YOU will be going, and how tight that 3- is going to feel after a long straight. Trundling along at 45MPH in your service truck (usually about 4 feet higher off the ground then you will be on race day) can fool you into thinking. "Oh - that corner isn't too bad..." OR "Woah that drop-off is far - maybe you should slow way down" - for something that you won't even SEE on the day of the rally.

With notes of any kind, there will always be "that corner". For us, there is a R4 on Perkinsville that surprised me two years in a row. It IS an R4, BUT - the way you come up to it from the last set of turns and the way the camber is, I HAVE to pretend it's a 3, and Christine calls it a 3... and now when I go slow and putt through it I think: "damn - that's a 4 and I could go way faster." :p Such is rally.

What excites me the most about this post is the regional access to inexpensive well crafted organizer supplied stage notes. It used to be national only events and it used to be too expensive. Those of you with only a few rallies under their belt may want to drop Rally America a line and get them to re-think their "no notes for newbs" policy. The team building and safety that the notes provide - I feel outweighs a tendency to overdrive every corner because of notes inexperience.

- Kris
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Those of you with only a few rallies under their belt may want to drop Rally America a line and get them to re-think their "no notes for newbs" policy. The team building and safety that the notes provide - I feel outweighs a tendency to overdrive every corner because of notes inexperience.
That policy no longer exists.
 

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What excites me the most about this post is the regional access to inexpensive well crafted organizer supplied stage notes. It used to be national only events and it used to be too expensive. Those of you with only a few rallies under their belt may want to drop Rally America a line and get them to re-think their "no notes for newbs" policy. The team building and safety that the notes provide - I feel outweighs a tendency to overdrive every corner because of notes inexperience.

- Kris

Kris: The policy you refer to is last season's news. For 2009 RA allows organizers to offer notes to anyone as long the event also offers one pass recce. The organizer's must request a sanction exemption. Desert Storm 2009 found all but one entry running notes supplied by the Gibeault's. The feedback was very positive. Seed 9 will offer notes at no additional charge above the entry fee. The Gibeault's will again provide the notes.

Pat
 

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Faster Mabricator
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4R Xlg<> versus 4R<4+ 40 4+<4 (could just be me).
A 4+ would tighten '>' 4. Also, you are including a distance for a straight without a Left or Right for next instruction.

Prescott notes were good. a few areas to improve. length of corners. there was a few short corners that were not labeled short. and some of the long, or very long, or extra long corners were labeled just as a corner. or long when it could have been
This is an advantage of Jemba measured notes. The computer program is measuring the distances of corners and does not forget to include the corner lengths in the notes. You'll find yourself doing the same starting from scratch w/ 2 pass recce. 2nd pass you may measure to verify/adjust all the straights but not the corners. Takes a really note-savy codriver and several passes to measure all the instructions worth measuring (LgSmCr/300).
 

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4R Xlg<> versus 4R<4+ 40 4+>4
The second version is what you need if you want to go fast. (had you used 20 as a connector it would be a toss up but 40 definitely changes it into two corners)
 

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Kris: The policy you refer to is last season's news. For 2009 RA allows organizers to offer notes to anyone as long the event also offers one pass recce.
I recently had several competitors mention the 'now old' RA notes restriction to me. Even at Prescott it was brought up, so I took that it was still in effect.

- Kris
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Going faster

The second version is what you need if you want to go fast. (had you used 20 as a connector it would be a toss up but 40 definitely changes it into two corners)
Except that the navie isn't going to be able to call all those instructions. If the corner doesn't open or tighten more than an entire degree using a 1-6 grading scale, I prefer simply calling 'opens' or 'tightens' with it being a given that its only a half degree.


Including the 40 or not depends on the road; narrow slow goattrail vs wide fast superhighway. If it were of the later variety, it may seem a 40 during recce but a long opening and tightening corner at race speed when using the entire road. Very narrow roads will require more short straights.
 

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The nice thing is that we can disagree on this Dave... and we do.

It's an easy call as it is but I do agree that a half grade change doesn't need to be explicitly called out.
 
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