What is biased about it, Mike? I just want to learn if all the people who buy the notes do it willingly because they see value in them or grudgingly because they feel they have to to be competitive with other teams who do.
You shoulda had a option "All I know about rally I learned watching TV and all the Big Boys (OOOOOooooooooooHH! Hooooow Big???) have these Ulstermen and English yakking away, so if I want to grow up top be just like them I need notes to make my In-car Videoes sound more Authentic."
(Lurch you need to define the pivotal word 'worth' and 'valuable')
Sorry guys. Obviously I don't have a career opportunity in political campaigns or poll taking. You are correct, I have shown my bias by my wording. I apologize. I have edited it yet again, but since quite a few people have already voted, maybe the data is not so valid. Or maybe it is.
Next time I will take a poll to see what phrases I should use in my polls.
>Johnny boy, have YOU used the notes yet? Just curious.
No, I used MAPs and they were fantastic advantage:
knowing the the little kink I'm approaching in flat in 3rd was in fact a little kink let me shift UP ; when driving blind, being a beeeeeeeg weeeeeenie old blind crippled has been, I would have lifted slightly.
So it was not my skill which let me floor it, and shift up, it wasn't Dave Clark being a breathing tape playback automaton, it was Dave Clark displaying (grudging, growling at first _unwilling_ till we tuned the system (tuned being me threatening Dave with the famous Jamie bat!!WhackWhack!!) and we figured out we don't need to know the OBVIOUS route Book type messages like 90 or acute, but the huge HUGE!!! advantages was in the higher speed 70mph and up where I could leave it floored) a SKILL in looking at a map and on the fly INTERPERTING what he was seeing.
Now that's is a skill, he was contributing and it was a MARKED advantage in terms of speed WHILE still retaining the safety cusion that I like (ie, I like to be at about 85% with maps I felt good at 90%)
I'm sure Notes would be fun Lurch, but since they are available to all and the speed advantage is eventually OBVIOUS to all the net difference in the equation, if we analysed this as an equation with all the factors on the one side and all on the other and the only difference being on the one side the use of notes, we would see one thing different:
the cost of the notes.
Do you think it's interesting that in all the discussions most of those with more than 1 or two short seasons are Neutral on the subject?
I guess I'm in Mike and Don's camp. From a co-driver's perspective I do like the notes from a safety aspect because it lets me at least feel like I have some small amount of control over potential impending doom in that I can alert my driver to it and not just hope he sees it and reacts appropriately. I also like it because it increases the "team" aspect to the driver/co-driver relationship. But our playing of the game tends toward the least reasonable expenditure level of the sport. In playing the game at the club level, $150 a few times is ultimately money that can make the difference in whether another event is considered. I'd rather not spend the $150 but on the other hand as has been said one off is normally way more than $150.
>Now that's is a skill, he was contributing and it was a
>MARKED advantage in terms of speed WHILE still retaining the
>safety cusion that I like (ie, I like to be at about 85%
>with maps I felt good at 90%)
>Seattle, WA. 98168
>Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
With all due respect John, reading Pete-notes is most definatly a skill. It is not as easy as it looks, and in order for us drivers to go really fast, the codriver must be REALLY good. I had two very experienced codrivers read for me this year. Both were good, and made me faster, but were still only at 95%. By that I mean they were late or early a couple times, or maybe lost for a corner or two. It's a skill, just like driving. And just like driving it takes seat time, practice, and a bit of talent to develop.
BTW, Jimmy Brandt and I did the magic map reading stuff this year. It was a lot of fun (at least I thought it was fun), and I'd highly reccomend other experienced teams try it at a tulip rally once. It will make you faster, but not Pete-note faster. Probably more like in between the two. It really challenges the codriver.
>>Johnny boy, have YOU used the notes yet? Just curious.
>No, I used MAPs and they were fantastic advantage:
Well, there you have a point John.
If we don't have notes, the savvy co-drivers go to maps. (Most likely, they should go to the Dave Kean Potti Academy...) This is what caused all that consternation at Wild West in 2001 when Steve Turvey was seen carrying around a load of maps.
I've run maps on a few events and have marked up the required USGS Topos for a few of the ProRally events. They're $12 each, and you generally need 10-12 to cover a rally. At Rim, you only need 8, actually. Total cost, say $120, plus a few hours to mark them up. Plus $100 for a potti the first time you run them.
But maps probably provide 75% of the advantages of notes at approximately 100% of the cost. But it's a bloody hassle to get them all and mark them, so it would probably be a worthwhile business idea to for someone to generate some custom maps and sell them. $200 per event set is probably a reasonable price, if you assume costs are $120 plus labor plus delivery. On the plus side, since they don't show cautions or road conditions, you might be able to use them year-to-year(!).
But sure, if we don't have notes, I'd use maps. Anything to avoid rallies where your contribution is limited to leaning toward the window in a blind left-hand sweeper and saying "Opens." Ugh.
And it would definitely make Dave Kean the $5000/event man!
>How about the option "I've used them and would again but I'd
>prefer to make pace notes"?
I believe that notes are the only way to go in interest of safety. Having the option to write your own (or buy prepared notes)is even better. I won't run without them anymore, unless I am getting paid to...
PS- Hey Christian, then how much is Dave Kean gonna be worth per night?!?
Also Christian, worth a mention is the fact that the precision and quality of USGS maps are nowhere close to let's say Ordnance Survey maps. I used USGS at Maine 2001 and the British driver I was sitting with couldn't believe what he read at the bottom of the map: "Last reviewed in 1954"...
Yes, my first gut reaction was this was a trick poll, rigged to try to insure a desired result. The whole thing of only allowing a part of the population to vote is going to slant this result. There may be plenty of folks out there who had plenty of opportunity to purchase notes but did not due to budget limts, but you have automatically eliminated them. And, you have automatically insured the answer that would be selected by those who are notes advocates, by giving advocates only one choice, not a range of choices.
You have established with some degree of probability (not 100% mind you) that 31 folks (at the itme of this post) are OK with $150 as a price for stage notes. You have not established any real range of value to the whole community of the notes.
A very poor job, Lurch. Unless, of course, you did want a certain result......then congratulations. You don't have a future in real polling, but your prospects are bright as a political party pollster. I'm sorry to be so harsh in my comments, but this does not seem to me in the spirit of open discussion.