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Since the Discussion Item that Eric linked to has been deleted I will summarize:

Basically a guy was bragging about how he wrote a post deliberately designed to bait specialstage users into spirited responses in an attempt to make specialstage users look silly or stupid or some like thing. Apparently this is called "Trolling".

I found the information, er, interesting.

Derek
 

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Honest to god, some poeple have WAY too much time on their hands! I mean that guy is a waste of air as far as i'm concerned!

Still shaking my head
John Vanos
 

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>Since the Discussion Item that Eric linked to has been
>deleted I will summarize:

Deleted,
Well that's interesting isn't it? Appearantly Jesse Mullan, Mike Anson and his sniggering buddies are not proud enough of their opinions and motives to stand by them.

Say, is that what being a self described "slacker" is all about?

I know that what I write annoys some people,and as Morgan says maybe I should change the way I say things, and I say OK, maybe.

But I don't think any honest person would suggest for a minute that the intent of what I write is anything more than an ongoing attempt to increase _INCLUSION_ and membership influence in the rules making and rules application process, and with that a more democratic process.

And a process with some clearly defined checks. And balances.

And if those who are in the _official capacity of Administering_ the sport choose not to administer it, then we'll just do things like invent Gp2 "squared".

Fait acompli.




And now,to the slackers boys sniggering away on your private little cub scout pack, I don't think that you guys helping work rallies, and put on and take part in so called "Rally-crosses" and going to every event in a 12 hour radius, or hosting a web site is nothing.
And you guys have every right to whatever opions you want.

But sometimes you may ought to consider your ages and relative lack of experience in this sport before holding others in such obvious contempt.

But, try and remember this: just because you don't see something, or are unaware of something, like just how much time I may be giving to the folks I'm helping for example, does not mean it doesn't exsist or hasn't happened.

And I will repeat, you think you have a problem with me, call, or write, I don't like these silly handles and lack of addresses and phone numbers so all that is in the profile section for me.



>

>
>I found the information, er, interesting.
>
>Derek
Yeah, sort of.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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>Apparently this is called "Trolling".

Yeah, and they are not even good at it! I first got on the internet in 1987. Back in those dark days there were no pictures, no websites, no WWW. It was a strange UNIX universe filled with strange (me included) folks with nothing better to do than flame each other. It got to a highly refined art form and the best were so good that they could insult you and you would not even know it until you thought about it for a while. These kids wouldnt have lasted 5 minutes in those days. Sad indeed.
 

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Considering that my experience is mostly TSD, marshalling, and rally cross; considering that my budget stinks and that my participation has been much less frequent and lower quality than I would like; considering that I have had some negative reaction to John V's posts, I probably fit into John's slacker category well enough to be able to offer some insight.

Folks aged 20 to 30+ something spend their post-school decade coming to grips with the fact that while we may have neat ideas and we get our kicks from the coolest stuff imaginable (or whatever flavor of the month trips the "coolness" relay on our collective hive-mind), we must actually achieve something, pay our dues, get repeatedly slapped down, etc, before we can actually claim legitimacy in whatever cause we hold dear.

At some point in that growth (or decay, I haven't yet decided which term is appropriate) cynicism becomes a prominent (but hopefully temporary) feature in life. This can take the form of self-flagellation and half-hearted attempts at "self-improvement" or it can be directed toward others in the form of ridicule or other obnoxious behavior. I'm thinking of the current slacker magnum opus, the movie Jack*ss which I had the dubious experience of watching last night -- the skits in Tokyo and the golf course airhorn scene were very amusing, the rest was just, well, ya gotta see it and cover your eyes to know what I mean. A very well titled show.

Trolling the Internet for flames is part of this behavior, and some folks never grow out of it.

A couple things about John that attract the enmity of hip young cynics:
[ul]
[li]Idealism regarding organizations and the conduct of the organizations in relation to its members. Hubris! Didn't you know that the Man always wins and the proleralliat ends up in tent cities?[/li]
[li]Unabashed, enthusiastic claims of experience and wisdom. Reasonably well founded in John's case, but annoying all the same to those of us with less knowledge and experience but more friggin desire and commitment than we can safely handle.[/li]
[li]His (decreasing) tendency to dismiss as folly ideas that are not necessarily compatible with what he has packed into his knowledge base. A lot of this reaction, I notice, has more to do with how the recipient takes his comments than with the intent he gives them.[/li]
[li]The absolutely sick amount of time he spends on the board.[/li]
[li]The fact that he's actually living rally 24/7 (as a car builder and raconteur) rather than having to schlep along in the real world with the rest of us unfortunates. Damn him. Damn him![/li]
[/ul]

In general, I find the discussions on this board to be lively and generally well-intentioned. John and others of the proleralliat are correct enough of the time that one cannot dismiss them as cranks. It certainly isn't worth spending time trolling and giggling to ones buddies on other boards. It seems to be a case of pot-kettle-black.

andy
 

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Could somebody please move this thread to OT?

>Deleted,
>Well that's interesting isn't it? Appearantly Jesse Mullan,
>Mike Anson and his sniggering buddies are not proud enough
>of their opinions and motives to stand by them.

John,
I'm sorry that you're upset that the thread was deleted. It was deleted by one of the folks over there who was worried that things were getting a bit out of hand. Most of the folks from that board that I know (I don't know nearly all of them... just a few of the locals) are worried about creating any further delination between folks in rally. There is already too much.

Having said that, I don't think Mike Anson ever posted anything in that thread. I don't know if you've ever met Mike, but it's not usually in his nature to ruffle the feathers of folks. I think you owe him an apology.

As to your refence to everybody else as "sniggering buddies", I would appreciate it if you'd maybe think a little more before branding everybody who is a member over there. It's just that sort of haphazard, ad hominem attack that alienates those of us who do hold some respect for your opinion... however dogmatict that it may be.

Having said that, I did post in that thread. And, am ashamed of neither my opinons nor motives. Please, if you would ever like to talk to me about something I have written here or elsewhere, email me at [email protected]. Or, if you'd prefer to discuss something here, I suggest we start a new thread in Off-Topic.

>I know that what I write annoys some people,and as Morgan
>says maybe I should change the way I say things, and I say
>OK, maybe.

Well, you did just call 70 people you've never met "sniggering buddies".

>But I don't think any honest person would suggest for a
>minute that the intent of what I write is anything more than
>an ongoing attempt to increase _INCLUSION_ and membership
>influence in the rules making and rules application process,
>and with that a more democratic process.

Perhaps the problem is delivery, then. To be honest, it sure does not come off that way. For example, see the paragraph below that you authored:

>And now,to the slackers boys sniggering away on your private
>little cub scout pack, I don't think that you guys helping
>work rallies, and put on and take part in so called
>"Rally-crosses" and going to every event in a 12 hour
>radius, or hosting a web site is nothing.
>And you guys have every right to whatever opions you want.

Maybe I mis-read that, but this does not come off inclusive in the least bit! This is supposed to help us get involved with the rule making how, exactly? Or, maybe (based on the other comments you've written here) I'm not the kind of guy you'd like making policy. Am I? I don't know... I'll bet you don't either. Thanks for making me feel welcome.

Not to mention the fact you AGAIN are painting with a broad brush, when the offensive remarks were made by, what, maybe 3 people?

Having said that, what more could a person who does not have the budget (yeah, believe it or not, some of us can't afford to have the expensive rally toys) do than what all the volunteers out there do? It's not bad enough that there are all these people out there dying to be involved in some minute fashion that they'll give up vaction and travel (on their own dime) just to help staff a position that will never see a car at speed. Now that doesn't count? That doesn't make you part of the rally clique?

>But sometimes you may ought to consider your ages and
>relative lack of experience in this sport before holding
>others in such obvious contempt.

Absolutely! On the other hand, just because somebody's "rally knowledge" is bigger, doesn't make them king of the compost heap. People should tolerate your ideas just as you should tolerate theirs. These "whose schwanz is bigger" arguements do nothing for anybody... yet they occur on here with great freequency.

>But, try and remember this: just because you don't see
>something, or are unaware of something, like just how much
>time I may be giving to the folks I'm helping for example,
>does not mean it doesn't exsist or hasn't happened.

I don't think anybody has said this. I think that everybody realizes how dedicated you are to the sport. On the other hand, please don't assume that us peons out here aren't giving back, too. And, please don't "put down" the folks that can only volunteer... that's not a way to help include people in any part of the sport.

And, before I forget, what's with this thread? I thought that Jesse was SPECIFICALLY told to take his gripes somewhere else (by the person who started this thread). Even though he did, it's still got to be played out here?

Matt Haiduk
[email protected]
 

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k.
>

>[ul]
>[li]Idealism regarding organizations and the conduct of the
>organizations in relation to its members. Hubris! Didn't you
>know that the Man always wins and the proleralliat ends up
>in tent cities?[/li]

Andy, not necassarily. In the casae of voluntary social organisations like clubs, it needn't happen.
In real life, maybe. It's your choice.




>[li]Unabashed, enthusiastic claims of experience and wisdom.
> Reasonably well founded in John's case, but annoying all
>the same to those of us with less knowledge and experience
>but more friggin desire and commitment than we can safely
>handle.
But Andy everything which I advocate resistance to, and advocate change to would allow YOU to get into the sport easier and stay in longer.

I have already seen the same tired hyper-boosterism enticing guys to spend themselves into debt for the dream of a sponsored ride at the end of the rainbow. It's BS. I know stacks of guys who piled on so much debt they were paying it off 5-6-10 years later.

>[li]His (decreasing) tendency to dismiss as folly ideas that
>are not necessarily compatible with what he has packed into
>his knowledge base. A lot of this reaction, I notice, has
>more to do with how the recipient takes his comments than
>with the intent he gives them.[/li]
I can't help that.


>[li]The absolutely sick amount of time he spends on the
>board.[/li]

Andy, you know there are people allegedly working hard to dreaming up new ways to make the sport you want to get into and I've been in sporadicly for 18 years impossible* for you to enter, or if you manage to, meaningless after you paid your entries and done your event, and one of them is on the payroll at SCCA.
The man has the oddly appropriate title PR Director, and the ironically inapporpriate name Spitzner (it's German for one 'in the lead' or 'leader', as in 'im spitz' oder der Spitzner))

_He_ is never here, nobody really has any idea what he does but since he's been here costs have more than doubled (yeah, I know entries are up but they are all over the Western world, so one can reasonably assume either Spitzner is responsible for World Wide growth in Rally , OR the current demographic bubble, Computer games and WRC on TV have some small part in the increses)(and what happened to "Economies of scale", more people lower unit costs etc.) and even in his 3 years as Media and public realtions flunky has failed absolutely in secureing a series sponsor.
He is therorectically working 24/7 to make the Pro Rally Series on big continous (nearly free) advertisment for the un-named, un contactable, un elected Manufacturers Concil.
The guy is obviously bad news, and something akin to constant vigilence is needed.


>[li]The fact that he's actually living rally 24/7 (as a car
>builder and raconteur) rather than having to schlep along in
>the real world with the rest of us unfortunates. Damn him.
>Damn him![/li]
>[/ul]
Sorry! I don't even have time to get either of my own cars finally ready!
>
>In general, I find the discussions on this board to be
>lively and generally well-intentioned. John and others of
>the proleralliat are correct enough of the time that one
>cannot dismiss them as cranks. It certainly isn't worth
>spending time trolling and giggling to ones buddies on other
>boards. It seems to be a case of pot-kettle-black.
>
>andy
All in all, thanks for your comments Andy, do like some others have done and come over to the dark side.....

Oh, by the way, there is a difference in being cool, and acting cool,
and I've never been cool.
I am usually HOT about things, it's a generation thing which Dave clark explained to me once. And never been hip either, but was accused of being YIP once ("Put your hands up, you filthy stinking Yippie punk !" Mt.View California police officer to me back in my 20s, too bad I was tripping and facinated by the light from the flashlight, like tooooooo cooooool)





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
what's with this thread? I thought
>that Jesse was SPECIFICALLY told to take his gripes
>somewhere else

>Matt Haiduk
>[email protected]

You thought wrong. Matt you aren't very good at stretching the facts:7

Here's what I wrote -

at least HE not changing the topic here.
So get lost if you've nothing to add reguarding the direction of rally in the States (topic).

Good day:)

Done with this - C.E.
 
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