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I see the simplest and cheapest way to slow everything down is to go with a low grip spec tire. Add power? Just spin wheels faster. Silverstone probably has a decent M+S tire that would do the job.
Performance rally speed
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401 Posts
Not to start anything here but:
"Silverstone probably has a decent M+S tire that would do the job."
OK Trevor you started it!
Bring it on!
Your car or my car, any time any place. You bring the Michelins. I'll have the Tabors bring the Silverstones.
"Silverstone probably has a decent M+S tire that would do the job."
OK Trevor you started it!
Bring it on!
Your car or my car, any time any place. You bring the Michelins. I'll have the Tabors bring the Silverstones.
Joined
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107 Posts
While limiting tires will limit corner speed on a paved track rally is allready run on a limited traction surface and if a true rally tire is allowed the speed change would be small.
The real problem is the straights, not the corners. 30 years ago we just couldn't go as fast. 2WD, street tires and less HP. I was rarely over 80 or 90 mph, now I hear speeds well in excess of 100 mph very often. To get the overall speeds down we need to run twistier roads.
RCF
The real problem is the straights, not the corners. 30 years ago we just couldn't go as fast. 2WD, street tires and less HP. I was rarely over 80 or 90 mph, now I hear speeds well in excess of 100 mph very often. To get the overall speeds down we need to run twistier roads.
RCF
Joined
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946 Posts
>Not to start anything here but:
>
>"Silverstone probably has a decent M+S tire that would do
>the job."
>
>OK Trevor you started it!
>
>Bring it on!
>
>Your car or my car, any time any place. You bring the
>Michelins. I'll have the Tabors bring the Silverstones.
Jay could probably beat me if he had a Yugo and I had a Ford RS200.
I was being serious. I was not trying to imply that the silverstones are not excellent tires. I'll have them on my car once I need some new ones. Got a deal on the current ones I have.
>
>"Silverstone probably has a decent M+S tire that would do
>the job."
>
>OK Trevor you started it!
>
>Bring it on!
>
>Your car or my car, any time any place. You bring the
>Michelins. I'll have the Tabors bring the Silverstones.
Jay could probably beat me if he had a Yugo and I had a Ford RS200.
I was being serious. I was not trying to imply that the silverstones are not excellent tires. I'll have them on my car once I need some new ones. Got a deal on the current ones I have.
Ideally we would slow down the roads, not the cars. Our stages are just wicked fast in general. This is easier said than done, and probably won't happen unless rally gets super popular and commercial, thus opening more venues/opportunities to run. As it is, many organizers are barely holding onto the roads we have currently.
I like the idea of a spec tire, but I would go one better and limit the number of new tires per race. That would keep it affordable for the privateer and force teams to pace themselves or run out of tire in a hurry. This is what the local late model circle track guys do, and it works OK for them.
Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
I like the idea of a spec tire, but I would go one better and limit the number of new tires per race. That would keep it affordable for the privateer and force teams to pace themselves or run out of tire in a hurry. This is what the local late model circle track guys do, and it works OK for them.
Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
Joined
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1,368 Posts
I agree, many stages are too fast.
No matter how limited your tire is, you still be flying on a 2 mile straight.
The stages at trespassers wil were examples of what I think rally
stages should be. I also like the slow / rough stuff in the Kewenaw(sp?) peninsula.
100AW stages on the other hand.....
However, every time we have the slow / rough / technical stages, I hear competitors griping.
No matter how limited your tire is, you still be flying on a 2 mile straight.
The stages at trespassers wil were examples of what I think rally
stages should be. I also like the slow / rough stuff in the Kewenaw(sp?) peninsula.
100AW stages on the other hand.....
However, every time we have the slow / rough / technical stages, I hear competitors griping.
Joined
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785 Posts
I'd love to make the TW/100AW slower. Problem is the availability of roads. Current Mark Twain N.F. rules prohibit us from using any of THEIR roads, so we're limited to County Roads (previously Army Corps of Engineer built Forest Roads that have been turned over to the counties for maintenance due to budgetary constraints).
We're working with the Forest to have this rule revised and to gain access to some of the logging trails previously used.
Reynolds County has TW roads available because those logging roads just HAPPEN to be county maintained (sic!). We're hoping to find similar roads in neighboring Shannon County for 2004. But 100AW will always have a high percentage of "swedish type" roads.
Kim DeMotte
Official Old Fart, etc.
We're working with the Forest to have this rule revised and to gain access to some of the logging trails previously used.
Reynolds County has TW roads available because those logging roads just HAPPEN to be county maintained (sic!). We're hoping to find similar roads in neighboring Shannon County for 2004. But 100AW will always have a high percentage of "swedish type" roads.
Kim DeMotte
Official Old Fart, etc.
Reduce speeds by slowing the roads
The high speeds now at many national events are the responsibility of the organizers and they need to heed the maximum average speed rules in the SCCA rule book. STPR is coming up and has many sections where the roads are straight and speeds can reach 140mph in open class cars. They need to slow these sections down with chicanes so that cars cannot get over 115 mph which is the speed rating for the tires. Last year many open cars had tires delaminate at speeds of 125mph + causing accidents and severe car damage. If they do no slow these cars down with chicanes or more twisty roads, we risk more accidents and potential injuries to drivers and spectators. I sincerely hope they can chicane the STPR roads before the event starts..... for everyones sake.
John Nelson
#382:9
The high speeds now at many national events are the responsibility of the organizers and they need to heed the maximum average speed rules in the SCCA rule book. STPR is coming up and has many sections where the roads are straight and speeds can reach 140mph in open class cars. They need to slow these sections down with chicanes so that cars cannot get over 115 mph which is the speed rating for the tires. Last year many open cars had tires delaminate at speeds of 125mph + causing accidents and severe car damage. If they do no slow these cars down with chicanes or more twisty roads, we risk more accidents and potential injuries to drivers and spectators. I sincerely hope they can chicane the STPR roads before the event starts..... for everyones sake.
John Nelson
#382:9
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339 Posts
RE: Reduce speeds by slowing the roads
I have (4) delaminated Pirelli K-40's from 100 Acre Woods.
These 4 tires were used for both paved stages and have about 15 stage miles on them. The delamination was seen after the tires were removed from the car. All 4 have since been thrown away.
We saw 141 mph on the second paved stage. Next year we will have Z-rated 17" tarmac tires. With the larger circumference we will easily exceed the 141mph seen this year.
Brian
I have (4) delaminated Pirelli K-40's from 100 Acre Woods.
These 4 tires were used for both paved stages and have about 15 stage miles on them. The delamination was seen after the tires were removed from the car. All 4 have since been thrown away.
We saw 141 mph on the second paved stage. Next year we will have Z-rated 17" tarmac tires. With the larger circumference we will easily exceed the 141mph seen this year.
Brian
Joined
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1,074 Posts
RE: Reduce speeds by slowing the roads
>We saw 141 mph on the second paved stage. Next year we will
>have Z-rated 17" tarmac tires. With the larger
>circumference we will easily exceed the 141mph seen this
>year.
Don't hold your breath. I highly doubt those stages will ever be run again. No loss in my book.
Mark Utecht
>We saw 141 mph on the second paved stage. Next year we will
>have Z-rated 17" tarmac tires. With the larger
>circumference we will easily exceed the 141mph seen this
>year.
Don't hold your breath. I highly doubt those stages will ever be run again. No loss in my book.
Mark Utecht
Joined
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5,777 Posts
Ja, shore ya betcha.
Trevor, maybe a max width and max number. It is too expensive to have the tire failures we used to have when we all ran around on street car MS stuff.
I know that in Sweden for national events there have been rules aboutthe distance between the tread elements but I know this is about road surface wear.
In any case high speeds can easily be attained with any tire, thosae that know me know how beat to sheet the tires I'll used are, and Mr Darwin has a theroy about who will learn the reduced cornering limits.
My worry is the really poooooooor braking performance of the junk we used to use at BEST, and how really bad it was when less than ideal conditions prevailed. Very nasy when you are in er uh 'scume me er faster machinery of more correctly put , when one drives faster.
>
>I like the idea of a spec tire, but I would go one better
>and limit the number of new tires per race. That would keep
>it affordable for the privateer and force teams to pace
>themselves or run out of tire in a hurry. This is what the
>local late model circle track guys do, and it works OK for
>them.
Well maybe Dennis rather than a spec tire, maybe a max limit.
Again, I believe they have in the past limited max number of tires in SM, the perversly named Swedish Champignonskit events. I think they spray a little paint code and brand them but I bet any of the Swedes here might be able to say more exactly.
What I would wonder about is what would be done for guys who have NO new tires per event? Or destroy rather than wear out tires.
You know this could be one way to differentiate Club from those other Goood events.
Question is do we want to limit them or us?
>
>
>Dennis Martin
>[email protected]
>920-432-4845
PS Dennis, what are you doing about that blown to sheet Misterbitchy, got it stripped yet?
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
Trevor, maybe a max width and max number. It is too expensive to have the tire failures we used to have when we all ran around on street car MS stuff.
I know that in Sweden for national events there have been rules aboutthe distance between the tread elements but I know this is about road surface wear.
In any case high speeds can easily be attained with any tire, thosae that know me know how beat to sheet the tires I'll used are, and Mr Darwin has a theroy about who will learn the reduced cornering limits.
My worry is the really poooooooor braking performance of the junk we used to use at BEST, and how really bad it was when less than ideal conditions prevailed. Very nasy when you are in er uh 'scume me er faster machinery of more correctly put , when one drives faster.
>
>I like the idea of a spec tire, but I would go one better
>and limit the number of new tires per race. That would keep
>it affordable for the privateer and force teams to pace
>themselves or run out of tire in a hurry. This is what the
>local late model circle track guys do, and it works OK for
>them.
Well maybe Dennis rather than a spec tire, maybe a max limit.
Again, I believe they have in the past limited max number of tires in SM, the perversly named Swedish Champignonskit events. I think they spray a little paint code and brand them but I bet any of the Swedes here might be able to say more exactly.
What I would wonder about is what would be done for guys who have NO new tires per event? Or destroy rather than wear out tires.
You know this could be one way to differentiate Club from those other Goood events.
Question is do we want to limit them or us?
>
>
>Dennis Martin
>[email protected]
>920-432-4845
PS Dennis, what are you doing about that blown to sheet Misterbitchy, got it stripped yet?
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
Joined
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339 Posts
RE: Reduce speeds by slowing the roads
I have no problem with never running those two stages again.
This is a perfect instance where safety committee should have the power to say "No way. This stage can't run."
Brian
I have no problem with never running those two stages again.
This is a perfect instance where safety committee should have the power to say "No way. This stage can't run."
Brian
RE: Reduce speeds by slowing the roads
I have to say that standing at the golf course spectator point near the end of that stage at 100AW, I was shocked at the speed you guys were going. I was expecting it to be fast, but when Seamus came through as first car, it kind of rolled me back on my heels. It was the first time in my short time of spectating that I said "Wow, that does not look safe..."
I have to say that standing at the golf course spectator point near the end of that stage at 100AW, I was shocked at the speed you guys were going. I was expecting it to be fast, but when Seamus came through as first car, it kind of rolled me back on my heels. It was the first time in my short time of spectating that I said "Wow, that does not look safe..."
Joined
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339 Posts
RE: Reduce speeds by slowing the roads
I filled out my CER and by all means commented on those two paved stages.
As the guy who finished 2nd and 1st on those stages, I didn't like them.
Brian "5th gear 7600rpm.....for a while"
I filled out my CER and by all means commented on those two paved stages.
As the guy who finished 2nd and 1st on those stages, I didn't like them.
Brian "5th gear 7600rpm.....for a while"
RE: Reduce speeds by slowing the roads
>I filled out my CER and by all means commented on those two
>paved stages.
>
>As the guy who finished 2nd and 1st on those stages, I
>didn't like them.
But Brian, you've already said you complain about everything
http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID19/132.html
Bruce
>I filled out my CER and by all means commented on those two
>paved stages.
>
>As the guy who finished 2nd and 1st on those stages, I
>didn't like them.
But Brian, you've already said you complain about everything
http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID19/132.html
Bruce
RE: Reduce speeds by slowing the roads
How long is a chicane going to last in the woods and what are you supposed to make it out of? A state or national forest is not a private race track.
I think the only way to lower average speeds is to shorten stages, concededly not the best solution, but dooable in the interim.
STPR is a perfect example where you can do this, although it would necessitate a lot more workers.
How long is a chicane going to last in the woods and what are you supposed to make it out of? A state or national forest is not a private race track.
I think the only way to lower average speeds is to shorten stages, concededly not the best solution, but dooable in the interim.
STPR is a perfect example where you can do this, although it would necessitate a lot more workers.
Joined
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339 Posts
RE: Reduce speeds by slowing the roads
Two ways that I've seen:
Hay bales - very hard on the car if you hit one. 100AW used these on the short stages near town.
"Spaghetti strings" - some sort of weighted base with a foam section that stands up. A crew is with each of these chicanes. If you hit one, you get 30 seconds or a minute penalty. The crew keeps them in place and has spare ones if someone destroys them.
Both are effective, but having to go through numberous chicanes on one stage points out that the road should be dropped.
I belive (could be wrong) that Delaware Mine at LSPR used to go straight and not use the specator delta. The delta is now used slow the stage and adds a cool spectator point.
Brian
Two ways that I've seen:
Hay bales - very hard on the car if you hit one. 100AW used these on the short stages near town.
"Spaghetti strings" - some sort of weighted base with a foam section that stands up. A crew is with each of these chicanes. If you hit one, you get 30 seconds or a minute penalty. The crew keeps them in place and has spare ones if someone destroys them.
Both are effective, but having to go through numberous chicanes on one stage points out that the road should be dropped.
I belive (could be wrong) that Delaware Mine at LSPR used to go straight and not use the specator delta. The delta is now used slow the stage and adds a cool spectator point.
Brian
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