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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In the endless discussions of what if this 34mm resstrictor vs what if that, Pat Richard argues that it really shouldn't make a big difference if all turbo cars were restricted to 34mm, because it would cap costs.
Well Pat, try and bear in mind that the 34mm and 32mm cars you and a very few select number of guys who are making some pretty OK results with are restricted motors which are bolted up to some really pretty darn good gearboxes (in terms of ratios, and spacing, not reliability!!!) and pretty nice useful final drives.
Sorry to lecture but I think the whole powertrain needs to be looked at, not merely the motor.

If YOU have the income to buy a current car, or two or three,a nd buy the latest gearboxes, then you aren't hurt so much by the fact that the the motor is strangled.
The motor may only make xxx ft/lbs, but your gearbox helps you keep the motor on the boil, and your final drive helps that thing go good in the upper gears.

I don't have the budget or the interest to build a Homologated car, it has been a stretch to build an exprired GpN and a halfish car (while moving, buying a house, getting married, restarting a business, etc).
And i don't have the budget for 2 close ratio gearsets, or alternate final drives.
As long as my Cossie motor is at 40mm, I don't worry at all because my motor will be able to make a sheeet load more ft/lbs AND since it can rev, it will make HP, and the stand road car gearbox and final drive ratios will be OK.

You presume Pat that everybody has optimum gearbox and final drives.
Only two manufacturers currently market cars optimised for GpN, and it is devastatingly boring to watch a 2 pony show.



The reasonable thing to do would be to build a GpN car or a 34mm restrited car IF THAT"S WHAT YOU WANT.
But don't strangle me.

Now it should be said that the drive for this 34mm was in fact a now departed obnoxious fellow from Plo-dive USA who wrote a letter directly to "Risk Assesment" and eveidently lied, in his typical way, that this would slow cars down, circumventing the PRB, and this is where the drive for this rule comes from, not from some data, pratical experience, or accident history.

The _POLITICAL_ nature of the rules making process needs to be brought to light so the merits of the whole subject can be discussed in a honest context, but within that, and regarding Pat's long standing advocacy of capping motors, well, thats just where performance starts.
It is multiplied downstream.


You have a class, be satisfied; stop trying to kill MY class.




John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

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I would love to see the gearbox budget of the Gp N teams running a Subaru this year.

1. Initial Price of the gear kit.

2. Yearly budget or per rally budget for repairs

I know that for an EVO the latest version of the Gemini dog kit was quoted to me at $11,000 for just the kit. And $16,000 for a complete gearbox. And it needs maintenence after every rally, price dependant on how hard you are on it.

Brian
 

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Speech from cross-benches

Whoa, we're getting all over the map with this, eh? I have yet another opinion:

(a) 34mm slows the car somewhat on straights and at high rpm, but there's still plenty of power to get in plenty of trouble. I don't see safety as a major factor. Note that JB and Thumper when crossing back and forth across the border didn't feel that much difference in the car with 40 and 34. And they should know.

(b) powerband tailing off earlier with the smaller restrictor seems to be the main thing. So frankly I think it takes a better driver to go fast with a smaller restrictor, ceteris paribus. That's more interesting.

(c) 400hp (40mm) introduces other problems that 300hp (34mm) does not. A single-plate clutch, no matter how good, is on the edge of it's design at 400hp. Axles and gearboxes (especially in blue cars without dogboxes) are exponentially heavily-taxed. You go through more tires. Etc.

(d) engine internals are more stressed. Look, you can run 27psi (or whatever you want to risk) in either a 40mm or 34mm car up to midrange - say 4000rpm. But somewhere the restrictor comes into play and the boost will begin will drop off on the 34mm car. But here's news: you map to reduce boost as rpm increases in any car anyway, no matter how big your restrictor. A bigger restrictor moves the curve upwards somewhat. But the temptation becomes to take advantage of all the area under the curve, and if you really do that you are putting big big pressure on the engine, especially with unleaded fuel. Hey - I've blown engines on 34mm, but I think the risks are greater on 40mm.

(e) I think there is one reasonable rationale for not going to 34mm restrictors, but at the moment it's an illusion: factory teams, if they were here, would whup you on torque especially. It's simply that they have had - what - 6? years to develop the cams and maps to optimize their engines on 34mm at the WRC level. Given a little time they would do exactly the same with 40mm, but they don't have the development time in it. But the teams aren't here, and given a little time they would be as far ahead on 40mm anyway, so I'm not sure this is a strong argument.

(f) I know that it's un-American and not American Grafitti / Fast Furious -esque to harness horsepower. God bless America. Thank heavens everyone's rich enough to keep buying engine and driveline parts.

Nomex on.

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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There are some pretty scary fast Open class cars that may not have the optimal final drive or gear ratios.

Having 34mm for Open would actually probably cause quite a few Subies to move out of Grp N (where the playing field is supposedly level but requires some effort to comply) to Open.

No matter what class you're in, you can always be outspent, suspension, tires, brakes....

My actual $0.02 worth is that I've had an enormous amount of fun driving a 138BHP 2WD car.
 

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400 flat to crest
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
>I would love to see the gearbox budget of the Gp N teams
>running a Subaru this year.
>
>1. Initial Price of the gear kit.
>
>2. Yearly budget or per rally budget for repairs
>
>I know that for an EVO the latest version of the Gemini dog
>kit was quoted to me at $11,000 for just the kit. And
>$16,000 for a complete gearbox. And it needs maintenence
>after every rally, price dependant on how hard you are on
>it.
>
>Brian
(use the voice of John Lithgow in his epic role from Third Rock from the Sun)
HA!,
then YOU JUST aren't serious enough to be at the sharp end of the stick!!

(perhaps you should buy an old Volvo for $450 and build that and see if going sideways is more fun!)
(double ha!!)
(I guess that makes it Ha! Ha!)
(and that's what most guys who have rwd say every corner, with an ocassional YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw!!! thrown in!!)






John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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400 flat to crest
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
RE: Speech from cross-benches. Hear! Hear!!

>
>Whoa, we're getting all over the map with this, eh? I have
>yet another opinion:

Ahhhh, a goood start presenting things as opinion! Refreshing.
>
>(a) 34mm slows the car somewhat on straights and at high
>rpm,
Why? Can't you just keep upshifting and the gas planted?



I don't see safety as a major factor. Note that JB
>and Thumper when crossing back and forth across the border
>didn't feel that much difference in the car with 40 and 34.
>And they should know.

To suggest that there is not a major loss of HP (due to the fact that BHP is defines as ft/lbs x a time element, we use minutes and restrictors limit air flow in and as a result max useful rpm) seems to be to be disingenuous.


>
>(b) powerband tailing off earlier with the smaller
>restrictor seems to be the main thing. So frankly I think it
>takes a better driver to go fast with a smaller restrictor,
>ceteris paribus. That's more interesting.

Then keep your 34mm EVO or prove you are as good as you believe you are and shove in a 24mm restrictor, then we'll really be impressed.
Or why don't you build a nice normal aspirated 2 liter car and I'll be pointing out your results to guys who want to get started as I now do with Jon Nichols results.

The point is however is that all things are not equal in the cars and there are a thousand roads leading to Rome, you have chosen one route (34mm rest. strangled motor BUT optimum gearbox and final drive), that does not mean others should be PRECLUDED from choosing another route (40mm and the gearbox that came in the car, wide ratios and 3.64 and all)
We are all of us in NorthAmerican rallying not lawyers living in Manhattan, or Snowboarders who sold their businesses at just the exactly right moment of the Internet bubble; just because you choose to buy the latest thing does not mean that the rules should be crafted to exclude any other choice,
NOT IN OPEN CLASS.


>
>(c) 400hp (40mm) introduces other problems that 300hp (34mm)
>does not. A single-plate clutch, no matter how good, is on
>the edge of it's design at 400hp. Axles and gearboxes
>(especially in blue cars without dogboxes) are exponentially
>heavily-taxed. You go through more tires. Etc.


Here you are talking details about something which YOU first presume.
And this is EXACTLY the point where you and Pat are missing the point.
Merely having a 40mm restrictor does not ipso facto equal 400bhp.

When I was ordering the EPROM for my car, I made a point of asking the geezers who had run the program for Ford Motorsport in GpN back when GpA was 40 and GpN was 38mm what was the lifespan of the gearbox when they were using max 38mm power and the answer was "Not very long at all, but we could swap them out in the field in just at 17 minutes cause we HAD to, and we had plenty of practice!!"
So I asked what level the gearboxes were reasonably reliable if I was nice to them and did only gravel, they said right at 330bhp.
So I said OK lets do 330bhp. (and at that hp all the drivetrain stuff is fine, since Ford chose to size their stuff with some good margin)
And I think that thru time that the vast majority of Mistubishi Eclipse, Gaylant, any Sub-a-rat Legacy or older Impreztel cars probably are in the same boat, they just want to run the motor as they were built so they can have some FUN!
>
>(d) engine internals are more stressed. Look, you can run
>27psi (or whatever you want to risk) in either a 40mm or
>34mm car up to midrange - say 4000rpm. But somewhere the
>restrictor comes into play and the boost will begin will
>drop off on the 34mm car. But here's news: you map to reduce
>boost as rpm increases in any car anyway, no matter how big
>your restrictor. A bigger restrictor moves the curve upwards
>somewhat. But the temptation becomes to take advantage of
>all the area under the curve, and if you really do that you
>are putting big big pressure on the engine, especially with
>unleaded fuel. Hey - I've blown engines on 34mm, but I think
>the risks are greater on 40mm.
ACP, you don't understand motors very well it seems.
Nothing you said references compression ratio or sizing of internal components.
Proper 34mm motors have compression ratios around 9.2 or so AND very high boost, wild claims of 34-35psi notwithstanding they are at least 2 bar, and effective compression ratios similar to diesels.
When done with the lightweight stuff in the Mistu or worse, the Sub-a-rat, the motors , if optimised for 34 are MORE stressed >>>>>
Than many of the rest of us would build our motors with a 40mm restrictor.
I think the record of outright exploded motors attests to that.

>
>(e) I think there is one reasonable rationale for not going
>to 34mm restrictors, but at the moment it's an illusion:
>factory teams, if they were here, would whup you on torque
>especially. It's simply that they have had - what - 6? years
>to develop the cams and maps to optimize their engines on
>34mm at the WRC level. Given a little time they would do
>exactly the same with 40mm, but they don't have the
>development time in it. But the teams aren't here, and given
>a little time they would be as far ahead on 40mm anyway, so
>I'm not sure this is a strong argument.

No but you and Pat can certainly afford to swap in some higher compression pistons, get a Garrett GT28 optimised turbo and pay for a remapping for 34mm, you already have the gearbox and final drive.
I can't and I don't understand why in OPEN class I should be required to just because that certain Disgustingly Churlish Plo-drive employee lied to Risk Management and claimed it slows cars down.

And as for refering to well "other countries have 34 or 32 or whatever", what does that have to do with a US class?




>
>(f) I know that it's un-American and not American Grafitti /
>Fast Furious -esque to harness horsepower. God bless
>America. Thank heavens everyone's rich enough to keep buying
>engine and driveline parts.
Actually the only major "rod out the side of the block" failures and continual gearbox replacement stories I know in the NorthAmerican scene has been in modern restricted cars.
>
>Nomex on.
Who needs Nomex?
>
>ACP
>Flirting with the laws of physics.

But you also flirt with the facts.

Nothing is preventing YOU or Pat from shoving a 34mm, 32mm, or indeed a 25mm restrictor into your turbo, just don't F**k with OPEN.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

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I'm not trying to kill anyones class I was responding to the posts on the other thread relaying some facts about cost realities and obviously not covering the gearbox issues. I'm not messing with anyones class, I'm responding to a bunch of people who have never driven a 34mm car.

But leaving that alone, lets just say, boys, that I quite happily have a box that lives no problem with a 32mm car, begs for mercy at 34mm, and will have to be completely redone/designed to live at 40mm. Thats if I wanted to do it. I just sold a brand new one to a NW competitor for less than half what Brian scott was writing about. It seems to work fine as this is my longest ever stretch of finishes (fingers crossed).

The gbox costs go up, and trust me, I've broken enough of them to know what they can and cant take, at least in my model of car. Again, this is at the sharp end.

I have a 40mm car, my N car is ready to be converted to 40mm once I get enough N points (one more event). I guess people are taking my posts wrong. What I am giving is a counter point, if you dont like it thats ok ! I'm not interested in ruining anyone's fun, I just disagree with the thought process behind it. John, you and I have talked on the phone about this so much, I thought we just 'agreed to disagree' :)

All I am relaying is that it worked in Canada, we had the same FEARS OF THE UNKNOWN, and in the USA all it takes is one or two people to walk in and give the same negative animosity that was around a few years ago. If you have the opportunity to cap classes and create closer racing, I say go for it. If you guys dont want to do it, so be it ! Let the chips fall where they may. I'll be there either way. I just know what its going to cost me, and I know what it will cost anyone else out there trying to win. And because of that, the numbers dimish, and we have a proven example of Canada how it fixed that.

I just think people should be informed with additional, outside and different opinion as opposed to adopting what I call the 'stealth mob mentality'. Its pretty funny. (i.e. well, yeah lets git em, but lets not make like we wanna git em, but lets git em cuz there all a bunch of commies/terrorists/34mm_people/mob_enemy_of_the_week). Its so funny. And then everyone says "oh but were not trying to win, just have fun" and in the same vein "but now I'm gonna have to spend money on my motor to make it faster, not cuz I want to win, but because I am so bored and above that wimpy 34mm engine stuff". I'm just calling it as I see it.
 

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- How about, again, taking a look to small rally nation where rallying is booming - Finland:

RULE: Old GrA and GrN cars with expired homologations, like John's Cossie, are rallied AS HOMOLOGATED. That means no restrictors or what ever it was when car was homologated.

- Ofcourse, when an old 2wd Cossie or Lancia Integrale kicks $ 100 000 new car some are not happy..... But spectators will love it!

PS. I talked to Ari Saxberg at Ita-Rally, Finland, who takes care of Juuso Pykalisto's WRC Corolla (owned and sponsored by Marcus Gronholm). Ari said: "We got 395 HP - not bad for an old Toyota!" Fully legal... Just think how much Peugeot, Focus and Citi have... It only takes money.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
>I'm not trying to kill anyones class I was responding to the
>posts on the other thread relaying some facts about cost
>realities and obviously not covering the gearbox issues.

But Pat, the motor is sorta bolted up to the gearbox and drives the final drive as well, and the demands of the motor, in whatever restritced form _OR NOT_ are met or not by the box and final drives, the issues are bound together.
>
>But leaving that alone, lets just say, boys, that I quite
>happily have a box that lives no problem with a 32mm car,
>begs for mercy at 34mm, and will have to be completely
>redone/designed to live at 40mm. Thats if I wanted to do it.
>I just sold a brand new one to a NW competitor for less than
>half what Brian scott was writing about. It seems to work
>fine as this is my longest ever stretch of finishes (fingers
>crossed).

Less than half is still approximately 70 times more than I payed for my gearbox and spare.
>
>The gbox costs go up, and trust me, I've broken enough of
>them to know what they can and cant take, at least in my
>model of car. Again, this is at the sharp end.

Ain't that the truth!!!
>
>I have a 40mm car, my N car is ready to be converted to 40mm
>once I get enough N points (one more event). I guess people
>are taking my posts wrong. What I am giving is a counter
>point, if you dont like it thats ok ! I'm not interested in
>ruining anyone's fun, I just disagree with the thought
>process behind it. John, you and I have talked on the phone
>about this so much, I thought we just 'agreed to disagree'
>:)

Yeah no problem Pat, it is just that I've tried to tell you that you have a quality that sets you apart from most of the people doing this sport and that is tenacity, and in this subject you are being tenacious (not contentious, tenacious, so it's fine)
>
>All I am relaying is that it worked in Canada, we had the
>same FEARS OF THE UNKNOWN, and in the USA all it takes is
>one or two people to walk in and give the same negative
>animosity that was around a few years ago. If you have the
>opportunity to cap classes and create closer racing, I say
>go for it.
Well that is one of the unanswered questions iddnit- are we capping class_ES_ so that the competition between classes is closer?



>
>I just think people should be informed with additional,
>outside and different opinion as opposed to adopting what I
>call the 'stealth mob mentality'.

Boy ain't that the truth.
I got a long polite letter from somebody in the midwest saying I shouldn't be ragging on the PRB about this rule because the PRB didn't want it, and he detailed the way the now departed Plo-Dive USA employee wrote a letter to the Risk Management and lied like a dastardly champion about how they should institute 34mm to slow cars down, when we know full well it was so they could bring over the fully developed 34mm spec cars for Lovell and that kid, explaining it to me in great detail, saying I should say anything.
Well I wrote him and said that au contraire mon sewer! The slimy backhanded truth should be out, _I_ knew the details already and I am sure others do too but choose to "be polite" in public, anyway.



Its pretty funny. (i.e.
>well, yeah lets git em, but lets not make like we wanna git
>em, but lets git em cuz there all a bunch of
>commies/terrorists/34mm_people/mob_enemy_of_the_week).

But Pat, you know they do think all you Canajians are Commies!
How many times do I have to say to look at the color of the leaf in your flag ferchristsakes,! You think that was an accident???

Its
>so funny. And then everyone says "oh but were not trying to
>win, just have fun" and in the same vein "but now I'm gonna
>have to spend money on my motor to make it faster, not cuz I
>want to win, but because I am so bored and above that wimpy
>34mm engine stuff". I'm just calling it as I see it.

All I want to do is NOT have to strangle an excellent strong, flexible motor with no good resason.





John "Comrades forever, eh" Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

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Yes 34mm restrictors will slow the cars down. To state otherwise is only proving your own ignorance. Prodrive knows because they spent millions developing the WRC motors this year alone and the sent the same engineers the task of OK do it with a 40mm restrictor and they said how much money do you have? X well for that price we may only be able to get you 12% increase in HP but if you want to spend X we can get you pretty close to the whole 15%. They didn?t have to use a lot of theory or hocus pocus just engineering. Fortunately this is rally not drag racing and its more than just an engineering competition. Thus the whatever from drivers who have done both. As for price yes a WRC motor is more expensive than a back yard built, lets pray it makes a lot 40mm motor. But a lot cheaper than a WRC motor plus X and people have equal access. However, if you really want to curb cost go with group N as max class and yes lax some of the Homologation rules expirations and add a group N prototype class for other makes. That way even lowly ex attorneys from Manhattan and Entrepreneurs from Whistler can keep up with Factories and even they can?t spend each other or other sponsors under the table. I, pat and others were on this pretty heavy the best excuse anyone could come up with was it would be boring without the big HP I said BS apparently Pat said oh Yeh? watch me!
 

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RE: Speech from cross-benches. Hear! Hear!!

> not lawyers living in Manhattan, or Snowboarders who sold their businesses at just the exactly right moment of the Internet bubble

Now I know why you paint everything green John.
 

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I have read the 34 vs. 40 posts up and down and while everyone seems to be finding plenty of reasons to justify your arguement for not changing the restrictor I think that you all chose to build an Open class car to compete in a class that is run by a sanctioning body that changes the rules constantly. IF you do not like 34mm then run PGT there you hsould have no problem finding a car that will run fine with the stock ratios (oh woops I forgot that in the supposed budget class of SCCA most people are changing Diffs and final drive to be copetitive). I hat e to beat a dead horse but rally and motorsports are not cheap and you people are choosing to run in what is supposed to be the most advanced class in SCCA Rally and then you are going to complain about having to remap the ECU? Maybe change the cams? I think most of you chose Open class because it was easier then trying to fit your cars into N or PGT rules, well that freedom comes at a price. Last I heard it was pretty cheap to fly paper airplanes maybe some of you hsould go and take that up.

Now to address the issue of factory teams, frankly when and if they reutrn whether the restrictor is 34mm or the size of a thimble they will still kick all of our asses by two minutes. Just the facts boys, sorry if it bruises anyone's ego but there just isn't a whole ton of driving talent in the US. I think if you want stable rules then you either need to elect a person that can get the rules right or you need to propose an agreement with provisions for changes if need be much like they have in many other forms of motorsport. Flame me complain tell me everything I have posted is wrong I care not one iota. The truth hurts and racing is expensive and this is not coming from a Lawyer in Manhattan or an Internet millionaire just a normal guy that works his ass off.
 

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I have been reading these posts and I see valid points on both the pro- and con- sides of the restrictor argument. This can't be argued to any conclusion because we're not talking with the same set of assumptions.

I think the problem, as pointed out elsewhere but kind of gets lost in the noise, is that the PURPOSE of the changes is unknown.

This all comes back to the fact that the US rally scene and the SCCA in particular, after the withdrawl of the factory teams, is having a big identity crisis. Before most people were happy to live in the shadows of the factory teams and try to get a little trickle-down glory or a couple seconds on TV or dreamed of maybe being picked some day. Now that they are gone and everything has sort of collapsed, and the "build it from the top down" champions have all gone silent, there's some big decisions that need to be made about the future direction of the sport.

The problem is I don't see any discussions about the big picture.

Again, if you go back into the archives you will see this is nothing new. Much arguing has been done but no collective organized grassroots "take back the sport" groups have emerged. Perhaps this has something to do with the American "dog eat dog" "every man for himself" mentality, I don't know. But it seems very difficult for anyone to organize politically down here without having a connection to corporations or religion. The apathy towards government seems to extend into a feeling of lack of control, or lack of ability to change anything, in many other areas. That's just my observation from living here the last 3 years. Or, perhaps the majority still believe in the "top down" approach and are just waiting/praying for the factory teams and their foreign hired guns to come back so they can look cool again by association.

If its true that this change was an underhanded manoeuver by one of the factory teams to end-run the SCCA and change the series for their benefit, well that's nothing new is it? And can you really expect the teams to do any different? IMO no, they will always act in (not necessarily "enlightened") self-interest. The question is whether or not the sport is owned by the club competitors (the majority) or the sharp-end guys and teams (the minority). All these discissions in the US forums since I started reading this board a few years ago have revolved around this question.....

Skye Poier
Seattle WA
 

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NASA East

"Much arguing has been done but no collective organized grassroots "take back the sport" groups have emerged."
Too bad you live in the West because NASA East is fun.
Good luck working inside the SCCA, the climate is better than ever there for change but it still is an uphill battle I'm afraid.
rz
 

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>
>All I am relaying is that it worked in Canada, we had the
>same FEARS OF THE UNKNOWN, and in the USA all it takes is

Yeah well, socialized medicine supposedly works well in Canada, but we seem to see one hell of a lot of Canadians coming down here for health care.

BTW, just to show that things never change.... I was crying to my codriver the other day about restricters, and he said, "BS, this is nothing. You should have seen when we made everyone go from roll bars to roll cages back in the seventies. As a PRB member I was getting death threats!" That being said, I'm still not sold on restricters (or socialized medicine }> ).


Dennis Martin
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you think YOU have problems...

Had some time to look at what's happening in one of my old road racing classes and dialed up:
http://www.gt-racecar.com/
The participation numbers for GT5 - which are the smallest bore cars like minis with 1308cc MAX non-crossflow siamesed port, two-valve pushrod - are threatened with extiction of the class and they are trying to consolidate with GT4 which is 1600 4-valves and the like.
Now THEY have some work to do, the GT4 guys don't want weight and restrictors because it isn't their problem. The minis are already at 1300 pounds, the bore is maxed and stroking the motor puts the rods in the gearbox. Over there, the only solution is a mixture of blocks, cranks, rods, pistons, cams, weight and wheels and tires for everyone in the two classes!
Just thought you'd like to hear somebody else's woes.
rz
 

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Does anyone know if Sprongl ran his Evo in CARS spec (34mm restrictor) or in SCCA spec (40mm restrictor) at STPR?

Doug Woods
 

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I hat e to beat a dead
>horse but rally and motorsports are not cheap and you people
>are choosing to run in what is supposed to be the most
>advanced class in SCCA Rally and then you are going to
>complain about having to remap the ECU? Maybe change the
>cams? I think most of you chose Open class because it was
>easier then trying to fit your cars into N or PGT rules,
>well that freedom comes at a price. Last I heard it was
>pretty cheap to fly paper airplanes maybe some of you hsould
>go and take that up.

On the contrary, many of us have 4WD cars that are too old to run in either. Your argument seems to be based on "If you can't afford what I think you should spend, then get out." I doubt that many trying to start in the sport on a budget, or continue to have fun in the sport, would agree with you.

Mark B.
 
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