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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greets all,

I'm building up a 96 Dodge Neon for a ClubRally / ProRally attack sometime in 2003. It's a base model sedan.

I have read the Production rules for wheels an tires about 300 times. I'll quote here: "The wheels and tires are free, respecting the diameter and width listed in the official factory shop manual, which is to be considered maximum."

Now the car has 14X5.5" Steelies on it now. - EDIT
The ACR Neon comes with 14X6" alloys. - EDIT

Where would this be listed in the shop manual?? Do they have a MAX wheel tire size listing?
It sounds like they are talking about tire size - more then rim size - with respect to diameter. (So you couldn't put a 225/35/15 on it. Throwing off the speedo by 20%)

But does free = FREE - as in: can I put 17X6" rims on this beast if I wanted. (I know it's not the ideal size for rally - just an example) With a correct ratio tire that won't throw the speedo off?

Other P-Class rules question:
I can wrap the exhaust headers - correct? As long as they are the stock headers, the exhaust system is free. Some of you know how "prime" the location for the stock airbox is... ;) Over the exhaust manifold.

Thanks much!
Kris
 

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Greets Kris,

I think the intent is to allow you change the wheel and tire types, as in alloy rims and rally tires as opposed to original steel rims and street tires. The max width and diameters are still the same as on the original car. But I will defer to an experienced P class competitor on this whole issue.

Don't worry about the speedo cal if you can change tire sizes. Who needs the speedo anyway?

I would interpret an exhaust wrap in P class as illegal, since it does allow a performance advantage that is not explicitly allowed. And, I can't find any loopholes elsewhere in the P clas rules.

Mark Bowers
 

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<< would interpret an exhaust wrap in P class as illegal, since it does allow a performance advantage that is not explicitly allowed.>>

I would disagree with that one. 10.2.F.15 states "The exhaust system is unresricted except that the stock exhuast manifold must be retained, blah, blah, catalytic converter, blah, blah, blah..."

So long as the stock manifold is there, a literal interpretation of the rule would say that I could add to the stock manifold.
 

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>I would disagree with that one. 10.2.F.15 states "The
>exhaust system is unresricted except that the stock exhuast
>manifold must be retained, blah, blah, catalytic converter,
>blah, blah, blah..."

OK, I see your logic here. I defer to the gentleman from MI !

P class rules = bad headache x(

MB :)
 

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I may be wrong...
But I believe that all Neons 95-96 came with 14" wheels, not 15",
including the ACR's.
Maybe the newer cars have 15" wheels.

Brian
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Okay - Let me clear my first post up, and ask less subjective questions. :)

I've been driving Imprezas for over 4 years now - so I can't imagine a car with smaller then 15" wheels. oops :) But I did some more research, and hopefully you guys will be able to help.

The car I have has 14x5.5" steelies on it.
With 185/65/14 tires on it (the OEM size)


Now - how do we interpet the rules?

Can I move up to a 14X6" ACR rim and mount only a 185/60/14 (as that's the OEM spec on the ACR rim)
Or can I go to a 195/60/14 on that rim? (Only a 1% difference from "stock")
Can I go crazy and mount a 15X7" compomotive rim? With a 205/55/15? (Not that I would do that - just want to understand the rules.)

I have no idea how to "respect" the tire size listed in shop manual. :p I just don't want to go out and buy two sets of ACR alloy rims, and have to sell them because they are .5" larger then "stock" on MY car. (as I don't have the ACR) I also don't want to go and buy 12 sets of OEM steelies (for the same price :) and find out that I could mount anything I wanted to - as long as the fenders covered the wheels.

Help :) "With respect to the diameter listed in the shop manual." keeps going over and over in my brain. - Kris
 

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I'd like to answer, but I am stumped on this one. Trevor? You're a P man.....what's the norm here?

As far as 14" vs 15", don't sweat it. You'll save weight which will help. And, as a point of reference, I believe Steve Nowicki ran the stock 13" Fire Arrow wheels (aluminum) in the early 80's and kicked butt for several years in PGT.

Mark B.
 

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>I'd like to answer, but I am stumped on this one. Trevor?
>You're a P man.....what's the norm here?
>
>As far as 14" vs 15", don't sweat it. You'll save weight
>which will help. And, as a point of reference, I believe
>Steve Nowicki ran the stock 13" Fire Arrow wheels (aluminum)
>in the early 80's and kicked butt for several years in PGT.
>
>Mark B.

It definately is in the rule book though as of 1999 (suspension rules changed and this was part of it). I would worry about rim size, but not tire size (at least from a rule standpoint).

Cars typically come with a wider rim than we use for Rallying, so width would probably not be a concern unless you are running a tarmac stage, then you would be limited to max stock width. Whatever the largest nth inch rim (n being a number, 14/15/16/17) sold on the showroom floor would be the largest one you could use on your P class car. If protested, you would be referred to your Tech Manual for your car. So whatever it says is rim size is the max allowed.

My research on my Neon led me to believe that even the ACR neon before the current body style came from the factory with 14 inch rims. The Tech manual I had supported this so I only ran 14s on the Neon.

I personally had wanted to run 15 inch L4 Michelin's on the car and couldn't get more of my 14 inch matching rims after I bent a rim or 3... Thats life in 2wd P class.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
hmm... Who can I call to get a ruling on this?
Call the SCCA?

14" is fine.
But it's not totally clear as to what width wheel I can run.
Or if I can run a wider tire.

Thanks again for the help guys.
I did the head gasket on the engine this past weekend, and she's running like a top. Just the start...

- Kris
 

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I would start with Ralph Kosmides or John McArthur on the PRB. They have some time/history on the PRB, and would probably know the background and intent of these rules.

John's email is [email protected] ; he'll be busy getting STPR ready so the response my be slower than normal.

Mark Bowers
 

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You can run any 14x6" wheel you want. Aluminum wheels were an option on those cars, 14x6" size. Besides, I don't think anyone of your competitors are going to complain because all rally neons run 14x6s. Tires are free, put whatever size you want on it, as long as it fits on your 14x6" wheel. So you can run your 195/60R14 Kuhmo on the dirt stages and swap to a Kuhmo 225/50R14 for the tarmac stages. Tire diameter and width doesn't matter.

Good luck with the Neon, someday I hope to have a Neon rally car. Until then, my 99 ACR will continue to get thrashed on the autocross.

Steve Baumbach
 

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Putting my Colin Chapman hat on (Chapman was the guy behind Lotus Cars and was an expert in finding loopholes in the rules) ...

10.2.F.21 says:
>The wheels and tires are free, respecting the diameter and width
>listed in the official factory shop manual (FIA homologated cars
>will use diameter and the width listed in their homologation
>papers), which is to be considered the maximum.

However, as opposed to pretty much every other shop manual that I have ever seen, Chrysler does not list the wheel specifications in the shop manual for the 1995 Neon. There is some text that implies 13" or 14" wheels in its description of the number of studs, but no explicit text that limits the diameter of wheels available as factory wheels and no mention at all of width.

I think one could make an argument that would allow 15" or larger wheels on a Neon, unless the applicable year's manual is more explicit than the 1995 manual.

alan
 
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