[Subie Gal]

hey all.
i realize that an oil or tranny cooler is permitted...

but i've had serious issues w/the power steering fading out near the end of the long stages... as the fluid is boiling over

suggestions on what to do here?

and what can i do per the rules?

can i add some type of a ps cooler?

do i just run synthetic??

or do i just wing it and wait until i completely lose my steering???


any thoughts, ideas, examples are massively appreciated!

cheers!
Jamie
www.subiegalracing.com
www.subiegal.com

 

[Trevor Donison]

>hey all.
>i realize that an oil or tranny cooler is permitted...
>
>but i've had serious issues w/the power steering fading out
>near the end of the long stages... as the fluid is boiling
>over
>
>suggestions on what to do here?
>
>and what can i do per the rules?
>
>can i add some type of a ps cooler?
>
>do i just run synthetic??
>
>or do i just wing it and wait until i completely lose my
>steering???
>

I would try completely replacing the fluid. If its boiling over, it sounds like there may be some water in the system.

Trevor

 

[johnfelstead]

I found this Jamie, probably worth trying out before you go to the expense of installing a cooler!

http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/offroad2.htm

 

[Jerry Brownell]

Is it actually boiling out or is it getting kind of foamy? If it isn't actually boiling, you may just need to replace the power steering pump. I would be surprised if you were boiling fluid at a low temperature rally. Our G5 car has a power steering cooler, but that is because Gail raced the car in Jamaica a couple of times.

 

[John Vanlandingham]

Jamie,
Your question is one that had me worried when building my Frod.
European and US PS systems operate at 75 bar and no doubt Jap junk is similar, and I watched you reving the peace outa the motor at DooFlops, so I'm not surprised your seeing some heat and cavitation issues (which is what's going on, Pat R has mention similar stuff, several other friends with PS as well.)(friends that rev their motors that is...he he)

You need to get an answer on the legality aspect which nobody addressed while they're too busy being mechanics.

ATF is already an oil which is intended to run at some really high tempuratures. I doubt if just a bit fancier ATF will cure this.

There are plenty of nice compact little coolers on varios things out in the wrecking yards so I would expect to pay maybe max $15. The cooler is on the return side of the system, which is low pressue so you don't need fancy hose and fittings, Ford Motorsport has nice pictures of hoses with normal hose clamps (normal meaning AWAB clamps not the sheeeet US flat clamps with holes all the way thru).
Oh, the pictures showing the cooler also show a nice filter¤, I used some GM fuel injection filter and a Volvo V6 245 automatic trans cooler as my cooler, so total cost hoses, filter and cooler was a whopping $26.



¤Filter is for the leeetle teeeenie crystaline boogers which form in normal use in even streetcars and these boogers are the source of the normal wear and death of OEM steering racks, they chew grooves into the pinion housing where the teflon rings ride on the soft aluminum.
Little grooves, loss of pressure, loss of pressure, loss of assist.












John Vanlandingham

 

[Don Kennedy]

In 2 years of running my Impreza, I've never had this problem, except last year at Rapidan coef 1 which was basically 3 rallycross fields linked together to create a 5 mile course of very low speed twisty stuff. I don't know if it actually boiled or not, I just saw the results after a run and that was a very hot resevoir and some excess fluid on the outside of it.

 

[Jerry Brownell]

JVL said: <<You need to get an answer on the legality aspect which nobody addressed while they're too busy being mechanics.>>

No need to insult those of us who are trying to help. You give advice based on your experiences, I'll give advice based on mine. Two years ago I was having problems with cavitation even with a cooler. Replaced the PS pump and no problems since. While I'm sure OT is plenty twisty, I doubt it is more so than CT (where we had no problem last year) or the Rapidan rallycrosses that Don speaks of. Could it possibly be that there is another correct answer other than yours?

As for the legality, adding a PS cooler would be just as legal as seam welding. It is not specifically called out as permitted, so therefore it is not.

 

[T Bier]

Sorry to say that I don't think you can put a ps cooler on unless you can find Subaru offered one at some point. There's that section about authorized modifications - All items that are not specifically allowed or referred to as unrestricted must be of OEM spec.

Production class rules can be a pain. Best thing probably is flush the system and try Redline or NEO. Have enough spare fluid at service to flush it again. You WILL be using your steering wheel at Rim.

 

[John Vanlandingham]

Hey Jerry, keep your shirt on, OK?
She asked a direct question, and for all she knows, and me too for that matter, since the Sub-a-rat probably has some loop of extra piping which at least Ford refers to a PS cooler, could be shes wondering about it from that angle.
And YOURS was not the response which had me slapping my forehead, it was another which was stupid beyond belief.














John Vanlandingham

 

[starion887]

Hi Jamie,

As has been pointed out, in P class this should not be legal. If after you try these other solutions with changing fluid and pumps, you might try just putting on a much longer hose in one area, and routing it so that is just happens to be in some cool air?? Can't think that would be illegal, and having more fluid in the system will keep the overall fluid temp lower (same heat into more fluid = less temp rise per cc of fluid) plus some cooling benefits. I would hope that no one would gig you for an unusually long hose in P class!

How's life since you started rallying? Has Nirvana arrived at last??

Mark Bowers

 

[Subie Gal]

thank you everyone.

first off... yes... it's boiling... not foaming..
and it boiled at doo **** as well as at ot...
there is nothing "wrong" with the ps pump...
it's the fact that i ride the rev and drive the hell out of that poor little 1.8L engine every single event...

i dont see where it specifically says i can NOT add a ps cooler.
as you can add oil and tranny coolers...
and a ps cooler does not add any hp or advantage to the engine...

wouldnt this be in the realm of what's ok?

i will check out the fluids you all mentioned...
and definately flush the system....
i just have to decide what to flush it WITH...
and next up is rim!
bah! this will be fun! *insert roll eyes here*

thanks again for your assistance and advice.
lovin this rally gig! it rocks!!!

Jamie
www.subiegalracing.com
www.subiegal.com

 

[Jerry Brownell]

Jamie said: <<first off... yes... it's boiling... not foaming..>>

Fair enough. Just thought I would mention that based on my experiences.

and,
<<i dont see where it specifically says i can NOT add a ps cooler.>>

10.2.F.11
All items that are not specifically allowed or referred to as "unrestricted", in this section, must be of original manufacturer's specification. Minor changes (such as a hole in the fire wall, etc.), resulting from authorized modifications, are permissable.

The power steering system is not referred to as "unrestricted", nor does any other modification require the addition of a power steering cooler. In fact, this would, by the letter of the law, make the use of a longer fluid line illegal.

 

[Kartwheel]

>i dont see where it specifically says i can NOT add a ps
>cooler.

That's the rub. Before the P class rules go on to what you can do legally, it says "All items not specifically allowed, or referred to as 'unrestricted' must be of original manufacturer specification". This means unless the car came with it you can not add one since they did not explicity allow it.

 

[Rally 1]

FWIW,

I ran into the same problem on our A-Sedan Mustangs.
The solution (at that time)was to reduce the output pressure at engine redline (7000). This was done by drilling a bleedhole (started with 1/16",finalized at 1/8") in the pressure bypass plunger inside the pump. The Ford pump is designed to operate at a pump shaft speed of 3000 rpm, turning the engine at 7000 created the exact problems you are experiencing, higher rpm=higher pressure (within its design limits)=higher temperatures. We also are using a small cooler made by Russel Industries, with a air duct from the grill area.
I have also experimented with a pressure regulator in the high pressure line, that seems to work just as well. Currently have a unit from Canton (oil pans). The bypass is plumbed back to the power steering res.
A larger pulley would help also, but not permitted within the Prod rules.
K

 

[John Vanlandingham]

Good call Rally Focus, this is probably allowed within the rules, maybe. and some larger holes in the pinion housing is what was done inside John Lanes Volvo rack which the guts were sent to specialist in Sweden for more volume thru and quicker pinion for 2.2 turns.

Ford expressly warns of cavitation when using standard road car parts.
(So this isn't my idea, my idea is that it's inferior stuff on them Sub-a rats te he)

So Jamie the fluis is way way hot, but almost without doubt it's not boiling per se but thinning out and then at the hi revs it becomes aereated and air, or air/fluid emulsion or foam does'nt give assist, fluid does.
The fluid gets hot and it expands, it gets aereated it takes up more volume. don't know what you can do except maybe drill out the relief hole in the pump like Focus suggests, and then don't say anything.














John Vanlandingham

 

[Subie Gal]

ooookaaay...
think i have a solution...
going to try running Redline D4ATF at rim...
and see if that solves the problem...

i'll keep you guys posted!
thanks for all the advice!!
it's massively appreciated...
cheers
Jamie
www.subiegalracing.com
www.subiegal.com

 

[Trevor Donison]

>The fluid gets hot and it expands, it gets aereated it takes
>up more volume. don't know what you can do except maybe
>drill out the relief hole in the pump like Focus suggests,
>and then don't say anything.


So you would advocate cheating? Making small hidden modifications that aren't visible? And then not saying anything?

How about oversize pistons then?

 

[JField]

Well Trevor, you gotta admit, if you are going to cheat, it is WAY better not to say anything. For instance, I never ever mention that my turbocha....oops....nevermind.

 

[starion887]

A Legal Rule for P class Power Steering cooler

Everyone, I think there is a real and legal way to allow a power steering cooler in P class:

Refer to section 26 of Article 10.2.F, titled "Supplementary Accessories". It reads:

"Supplementary accessories are authroized, without restriction, provided they have no influence whatsoever on the behavior of the car. For example, those concerning the aesthetics.......; or those enabling easier and safer driving of the car (.....) provided they do not effect the performance and/or speed of the vehicle."

Having one's power steering fluid boil makes steering slower and harder, and it will certainly have a potential negative impact on safety, especially if one were to be surprised at increased steering effort at the end of a long straight with high engine revs and subsequent aeration of the fluid.

As a tech inspector, if you came to me with THIS argument, I would have no problem passing it A-OK. I cannot see any performnace advantage gained at all, just maintaining the orignal behavior (and safety) of the car's steering.

This looks to me to be a legal way to add the p-steering cooler, and avoid any illegalities of enlarger holes or longer hoses. AND, it truly meets the spirit under which the P class was conceived, and which is the guiding principle in the rules.

Comments?

Jamie, hope this helps more than the silly "long line" suggestion!

Mark Bowers

 

[John Vanlandingham]

RE: A Legal Rule for P class Power Steering cooler

>Everyone, I think there is a real and legal way to allow a
>power steering cooler in P class:
>
>Refer to section 26 of Article 10.2.F, titled "Supplementary
>Accessories". It reads:
>
>"Supplementary accessories are authroized, without
>restriction, provided they have no influence whatsoever on
>the behavior of the car. For example, those concerning the
>aesthetics.......; or those enabling easier and safer
>driving of the car (.....) provided they do not effect the
>performance and/or speed of the vehicle."
>straight with

>
>As a tech inspector, if you came to me with THIS argument, I
>would have no problem passing it A-OK. I cannot see any
>performnace advantage gained at all, just maintaining the
>orignal behavior (and safety) of the car's steering.
>
>

>
>Jamie, hope this helps more than the silly "long line"
>suggestion!
>*********Mark, you know several mfg's do just that and call it a cooling loop, so if they have the gall to call it that, don't flog yerself for suggesting it.
>Mark Bowers


And also, let's have beer raised to Mark B for reading and quoting the relevent chapter and verse, the way questions should be addressed.
Hey wait a minute Mark, you have some 'oafish-al' capacity as a SCCA scrutineer? don't you know you're supposed to studiously avoid responding to anything in public? Gimme back that beer!

PS want me to send you and your son some RED Pro-le-ralliat stickers?



So Jamie, drill the hole AND fit the cooler. Cheap and easy.












John Vanlandingham