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400 flat to crest
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5,777 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK, so the return for investment balance has led first to Hyundai and now Mitsubishi to leave and the prime enabler, the man who said "you can have the lunatics running the asylum", the benevolent dictator is nearly gone.

Is this not as much an opportunity as it is a dilemna?

Now some people who don't understand dialog very well think that if a person isn't saying explicitly this or that then no suggestions have been offered so rather than phrasing suggestions in the forming of the questions, I'm going to be explicit for once, since that's what it take I guess.

It's obvious to all that next years Championship will with only 1 overwhelming massive budget team be a pointless excercise in every sense of the word.
With the handmaiden of the MFG council gone, but word that he will be relaced by one of his handlers, there reamins a serious credibility crisis in the governance of the sport.

IS THERE SOME WAY THAT MEMBERSHIP AND THE ACTIVE CAN BEGIN THE PROCESS TO CHANGE THE FOCUS OF THE RALLY DEPARTMENT AND THE SERIES???

Here's some simple suggestions which MANY people have picked up from writings here but some haven't

MAKE THE PERF RALLY BOARD POSITIONS ELECTIVE
MAKE TERMS OF THE PERF RALLY BOARD CLEAR AND LIMITED AND ROLLING.
ROTATE THE POSITION OF 'BIG KAHUNA'
MAKE ALL RULES CHANGES HAVE THE NAME OF THOSE PROPOSING ATTACHED, AND ASSIGN A PRB MEMBER TO SHEPARD THE RULE
MAKE THE MEETINGS OF PRB MORE ACCESSIBLE, PUBLISH VOTES.

MAKE TERMS OF ALL CONTRACTS OF THIS NON-PROFIT ORGANISATION PUBLIC.

What possible reason can there reasonable be for resisting a membership-democratic process in administering and responding to this sport?

And as for the Championship, there is still no term National Champion, a huge and inexplicable blunder considering the promotional impossiblity of the phrase "series overall ponts leader" or whatever the hell it si now.

Time to institute a concept of National Champion.
This follows the practice elsewhere including the WRC Drivers Championship.
It must be able to represnt the whole country so it must have broad participation.
That right there means that it cannot be a cruise-thru for the big budget importer or USA distributor teams and drivers, they have their Manufacturers Title to play for.
That means it has to be the broadest possible inclusion. But the levelest field means some restrictions.

I suggest that points toward the title Nation Champion should be awarded only in the old simplified Gp2 thing some have been pushing for 10 years: 2000cc-2000lbs-2wd-2 man crew.
You can still drive your P or PGT or open cars don't worry! but if you want to be clled National Champion, you will want to be in this class.

Enough suggestions, now
IN LIGHT OF THE OPPORTUNITIES PRESENTED BY THE EMPTINESS OF the next season, there's no better time than now.

For a better tommorrow* maybe back to the future?**



John "Hard Boiled" Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/

*Who has seen that great film?
** or the covolution in that one?
 
G

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>OK, so the return for investment balance has led first to
>Hyundai and now Mitsubishi to leave and the prime enabler,
>the man who said "you can have the lunatics running the
>asylum", the benevolent dictator is nearly gone.
>
>Is this not as much an opportunity as it is a dilemna?

<snip>

>IS THERE SOME WAY THAT MEMBERSHIP AND THE ACTIVE CAN BEGIN
>THE PROCESS TO CHANGE THE FOCUS OF THE RALLY DEPARTMENT AND
>THE SERIES???


Silly John,

There isn't a prayer that significant changes can be
made if the people supporting Spitzner and _his_ PRB
for the past 5 years are not ousted. Without their
support Spitzner and the PRB could not have done what
they did.

Examine the Special Stage and Rally-L archives of the
past 5 years to see who these people are.

Try naming them here, and watch them squirm and try to
wriggle out of their complicity.

Remember:
Kurt Spitzner and the PRB did NOT do this without help.
 

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don't cut
Joined
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4,075 Posts
>
>Remember:
>Kurt Spitzner and the PRB did NOT do this without help.
This is a true statement. Many people have worked to get performance rally where they think it should be. They put on events, write direct letters and behave in a civilized manner. Writing on a BB no matter how widely read you think that BB should be does not have the same affect as direct communication. So take over the club if you don't like how it is being run.
Richard
 

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Faster Mabricator
Joined
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3,611 Posts
Direct communication

>Writing on a BB no matter how widely read you think
>that BB should be does not have the same affect as direct
>communication. So take over the club if you don't like how
>it is being run.

Communication should be a 2way street. The club does not ask for or seek member input. Other rally clubs send its license holders annual questionaires regarding car classes and rules changes for their input. Why can't your club?

Members are invited to and encouraged to participate in other rallyclub's general meetings and vote in their elections. Does not happen in your club.

Members receive monthy mailings from the National ofice and regional newsletters (exclusively rally content). Your club sends a magazine with only blurbs about rally. The rally articles are even stuck in the last pages after even the classifieds and the rule changes and PRB meeting agendas are provided to the members after the fact.

Your club has too many officials, many of which do not have an interest in rally at all, however are in positions such as Regional Executives and Treasurers that could care less about rally and will not communicate or appropriate funds without constant pestering.
The lack of communication between all these officials amazes me. problem being too many people, high turnover rate of officials, and most are just volunteers.

>So take over the club if you don't like how it is being run.

Hmmn. No elections.
Hope you are not suggesting assasination?}>
 

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don't cut
Joined
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4,075 Posts
RE: Direct communication

>>Writing on a BB no matter how widely read you think
>>that BB should be does not have the same affect as direct
>>communication. So take over the club if you don't like how
>>it is being run.
>
>Communication should be a 2way street. The club does not ask
>for or seek member input. Other rally clubs send its license
>holders annual questionaires regarding car classes and rules
>changes for their input. Why can't your club?
Input is solicited. It is true that SCCA does not send out questionaires on a regular basis but it has happened.

>
>Members are invited to and encouraged to participate in
>other rallyclub's general meetings and vote in their
>elections. Does not happen in your club.
We don't have elections? That is a surprise to me. The overall board of directors is elected at the national level and the operating officers are elected at the regional level. True, most people don't vote.

>
>Members receive monthy mailings from the National ofice and
>regional newsletters ( exclusively rally content). Your club
>sends a magazine with only blurbs about rally. Geez, the
>rally articles are even stuck in the last pages after even
>the classifieds.
Check the cover of the February issue. And indeed it is true that SCCA is a club that does much more than just rally. Is this a bad thing?
Richard
 
G

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>Writing on a BB no matter how widely read you think
>that BB should be does not have the same affect as direct
>communication.

You are 100% correct! The effects are different.

BB communcation cannot be hidden. "Direct" communication
with SCCA rally is often hidden, buried, and not acknowledged.
 

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400 flat to crest
Joined
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5,777 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
>>Writing on a BB no matter how widely read you think
>>that BB should be does not have the same affect as direct
>>communication.
>
>You are 100% correct! The effects are different.
>
>BB communcation cannot be hidden. "Direct" communication
>with SCCA rally is often hidden, buried, and not
>acknowledged.

Ding! Ding!! Give that man a BEER!





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
 

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400 flat to crest
Joined
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5,777 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
RE: Direct communication

.
>Hmmn. No elections.
>Hope you are not suggesting assasination?}>

Even _I_ don't advocate rubbing out the PRB or the paid staff at SCCA, but I think the loss of Series Sponsor, the loss of Hyuyndai and now Mitsubishi and the long overdue banishment of Dave Richard's 2nd cousin is prime facia evidence that the course pushed and hypped all the last several years is bankrupt, and that EVERYBODY shpould tender resignation letters and a "Provisonal Government" consisting of the current folks in clearly demarked terms and roles be instituted witht he primary goal of a structural re-alignment toward open membership rule.

But a big shoot out like in the movie a Better Tommorrow is not completly outa the question.

So to Shindle:
Ding Ding! Give that man a BEER!





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
 

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Faster Mabricator
Joined
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3,611 Posts
RE: Direct communication

>And indeed it is true
>that SCCA is a club that does much more than just rally. Is
>this a bad thing?

> And indeed it is true
>that SCCA is a club that does much more than just rally. Is
>this a bad thing?

Yes!
The answer would be no only if rallying was toatally floundering and needed the support and income from the other types of motorsport. But that is not the case.

I was turned down a great rallysprint venue for a SCCA event because the local SCCA region's autoXers ruined the relationship between land manager and SCCA. The possible benefits to rally were destroyed by autoXers.

I attempted to get funds for the division's ClubRally awards. The division's roadracing-biased President and treasurer, who had a surplus of thousands of dollars, could not spare a couple hundred for rally. Their answer was, "Regions holding ClubRallies should pay for awards", when the award winners were from each region in the division. If I had to go to each region looking for a handout, its just another example of too many officials in SCCA.
 

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Administrator Emeritus
Joined
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1,253 Posts
>BB communcation cannot be hidden.

Oh really now? I could hide this whole thread if I wanted. Power corrupts baby!
 

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Registered
Joined
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146 Posts
RE: Direct communication

>>Communication should be a 2way street. The club does not ask
>>for or seek member input. Other rally clubs send its license
>>holders annual questionaires regarding car classes and rules
>>changes for their input. Why can't your club?
>Input is solicited. It is true that SCCA does not send out
>questionaires on a regular basis but it has happened.

For the one year that I was an actual SCCA member (mid 2000-mid 2001)
I was not solicited for anything but credit cards. I found the rally coverage in SportsCar to be extremely unencouraging. I was not aware of any opportunities for me to communicate my thoughts to ANYBODY. My impression was (and still is) that rally is the red-headed stepchild of the SCCA and American motorsports.

>>
>>Members are invited to and encouraged to participate in
>>other rallyclub's general meetings and vote in their
>>elections. Does not happen in your club.
>We don't have elections? That is a surprise to me. The
>overall board of directors is elected at the national level
>and the operating officers are elected at the regional
>level. True, most people don't vote.

Do these elections require attendance at a meeting or conference? If so, then the SCCA is still the Secret Car Club of America.

>>
>>Members receive monthy mailings from the National ofice and
>>regional newsletters ( exclusively rally content). Your club
>>sends a magazine with only blurbs about rally. Geez, the
>>rally articles are even stuck in the last pages after even
>>the classifieds.
>Check the cover of the February issue. And indeed it is true
>that SCCA is a club that does much more than just rally. Is
>this a bad thing?

Having a club that does more than one thing is not inherently bad, but the way that the SCCA is organized leaves the minority (rally) out in the cold.
As an SCCA member, I am thought of as first being a part of a region, then as a rallyist. But, the region focuses on road racing or autocross. Instead I want to be a rallyist first, then a part of a region.
In other words, I want my regional rally department to be a subsidiary of the national rally department, not a subsidiary of the region.
 

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don't cut
Joined
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4,075 Posts
>
>BB communcation cannot be hidden. "Direct" communication
>with SCCA rally is often hidden, buried, and not
>acknowledged.
You can prove that by having done it?
Richard
 
G

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RE: Direct communication

>In other words, I want my regional rally department to be a
>subsidiary of the national rally department, not a
>subsidiary of the region.


Many other people have put forth arguments that the local regions should be in control of local matters- being under a national rally department would seem to be against this.


I don't think things are that broken.

It seems clear, to me at least, the Christan and the others on Specialstage are willing to communicate with the people here on an informal basis and take the pulse of the membership.

Beyond that, unless an entirely new rally group is created, the changes to the SCCA will have to come from within.

Speaking of which, is NASA's rally program a complete unknown?

Or by not bringing it up, is that a tacit acknowledgement it will play little part in the overall rally scene in the US for a while?
 

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don't cut
Joined
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4,075 Posts
RE: Direct communication

>For the one year that I was an actual SCCA member (mid
>2000-mid 2001)
>I was not solicited for anything but credit cards. I found
>the rally coverage in SportsCar to be extremely
>unencouraging. I was not aware of any opportunities for me
>to communicate my thoughts to ANYBODY. My impression was
>(and still is) that rally is the red-headed stepchild of the
>SCCA and American motorsports.
>
Did you read FasTrack and Matters of the Moment? These are the official communication channels.
>>>
>>>Members are invited to and encouraged to participate in
>>>other rallyclub's general meetings and vote in their
>>>elections. Does not happen in your club.
>
>Do these elections require attendance at a meeting or
>conference? If so, then the SCCA is still the Secret Car
>Club of America.
No, ballots are mailed out. The National Board members are elected on a 3 year rotation while local boards are on a yearly basis usually although we elect our members on a 2 year basis. But you should go to your local meetings to build support.
>Having a club that does more than one thing is not
>inherently bad, but the way that the SCCA is organized
>leaves the minority (rally) out in the cold.
>As an SCCA member, I am thought of as first being a part of
>a region, then as a rallyist. But, the region focuses on
>road racing or autocross. Instead I want to be a rallyist
>first, then a part of a region.
>In other words, I want my regional rally department to be a
>subsidiary of the national rally department, not a
>subsidiary of the region.

All you have to do is organize it and convince enough other people to follow you. Hard work but it can be done. Do you think the race and solo programs sprang from the ground fully grown?
Richard
 
G

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My comment is based on personal experience,
thus it is proven to me.

Can I prove it to you? Within reason, but
I'm not going to do it here.
 

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Registered
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630 Posts
Lets get back to the original idea....

Original idea
------------------------------------------------------------------
I suggest that points toward the title Nation Champion should be awarded only in the old simplified Gp2 thing some have been pushing for 10 years: 2000cc-2000lbs-2wd-2 man crew.
You can still drive your P or PGT or open cars don't worry! but if you want to be clled National Champion, you will want to be in this class.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Can someone explain to me why this is a bad idea?
 

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www.christianedstrom.com
Joined
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2,144 Posts
Steve Hoffman wrote:

>>BB communcation cannot be hidden. "Direct" communication
>>with SCCA rally is often hidden, buried, and not
>>acknowledged.

RichardM asked:

>You can prove that by having done it?

I respond:

Since January 29, 2003, the SCCA PerformanceRally Board has received no correspondence from any person named "Steve Hoffman" or "Steven Hoffman." Had we received any such correspondence, it would be reflected in the PRB minutes in the Fastrack section of SportsCar magazine.

FWIW, and before this turned into another SCCA-volunteer-baiting thread, I might have posted which 5 of 6 proposals of John's I agree with, and what we could do to accomplish them in the next 12 months. But I'll return you to the conspiracy theories about stolen mail, instead.

Cheers,
- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com

(eliminated errant line break)
 

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Faster Mabricator
Joined
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3,611 Posts
>>BB communcation cannot be hidden. "Direct" communication
>>with SCCA rally is often hidden, buried, and not
>>acknowledged.
>You can prove that by having done it?

Richard,
Two recent examples of trying direct communication.
First, I inquired about the eligibilty of the Canadian Production champion entering a couple SCCA ProRally events this season after he expressed interest in competing for the North American Rally Cup. The question was, and is still unanswered by SCCA, was that his car is more than 12 years old. However, the rulebook states that Canadian cars must only meet SCCA safety standards and is not subject to the eligibility requirements section where the age restrictions are. So, one would think the car would be allowed entry to SCCA ProRallies. I called SCCA HQ to confirm he'd be allowed entry and talked first to the Chief Scrutineer. Nope, he claimed the decision was not his responsibity. Referred to PRD who said car could not enter. Inquired thru a flurry of emails with Ralph Kosmides as to why the car could not enter if the rulebook says it is eligible and he said he'd bring it up at PRB meeting and get back to me. Never did. Too many people and it was hidden and buried, and not
acknowledged.

Second, talking to Pete Lyons, SCCA Risk Management, to find out where in insurance or risk management documents is it stated that competitors are required to be members. He said it is not required and to bring it up to the Performance Rally department. If his office is in Topeka, and the Performance Rally office is in Topeka, why doesn't he talk to them? The seperate departments don't seem willing to communicate with each other and does Pete Lyons even give a hoot about rally.
 
G

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>Since January 29, 2003, the SCCA PerformanceRally Board has
>received no correspondence from any person named "Steve
>Hoffman" or "Steven Hoffman."

You were not on the PRB when I communicated with them.

I did not specify when, or how, I communicated with the PRB,
and I won't.

You are entitled to not to believe my comment.
 
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