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There is not really any class that is compeletely Open anymore, and that's okay. All classes have limitations on modifications (even the so called "open" class). Maybe we should get rid of the word "open" without completely getting rid of the cars (and associated competitors). If open class cars need to be made safer, then let's figure-out a way to do it.

Knee jerk reactions such as jumping to Group N don't really make sense. That would leave a bunch of Audis, Subarus, Mazda 323s, Mitsubishi Eclipses, etc that will be obsolete due to pure laziness in terms of rule making. Seriously, Group N is not the answer in the US. Think about it. Study what it takes to actually make a US-spec car truly Group N legal. Does everybody love protests and disqualifications? Calm down and think for a moment.

Dave Hintz
'91 Geo (just kidding)
 

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Dave, good point. I'll preface my remarks by reminding folks that I started in Group 2(with a fairly slow Honda), moved to a 110bhp Impreza L(which I ran in Open class because I swapped the rear brakes and used a different ECU) and currently run an Open class Impreza WRX hybrid.

There have been some unfounded comments being made about Open class cars.

1.) Can anyone demonstrate that Open class cars were the reason for the insurance decision and the SCCA's ultimate decision? I've seen cars from all classes crash, and I think it's unrelated to the car and more about the driver. Let's look at the licensing process and put some restrictions in place about speed/driver experience. It's taken me four years to move into my WRX-some could do it quicker, but there should be some sort of licensing rules in place to prevent those who've never run a rally from initially jumping into an Open class car.

2.) There are some of us that will be unable to race for some time if we're forced to retire our Open cars. My car cannot be converted to Group N(without some leniate "local homologation," allowances). Dissolving the class will kill the value of these cars in the used market.

3.) I think all Open cars should run with a 34mm restrictor. See Pat Richard's comments elsewhere. So restricted, turbo cars are fairly competitive across the board. Look at the times from Rallye Defi. Pat was out front(where else would he be?!), but there were Open, Group N, P-4 and Group 2 cars in the top 5. Awesome racing!

4.) Open cars are a big part of the show that is rally. They have spectator appeal. If you want to grow the sport, you need a show on the stages and adequate promotion in advance of the rally. See comments elsewhere on the net(not by me) about the spec Impreza class in Australia. It's a cool class, but from a spectating point of view, people aren't excited about it. Perhaps it's a marketing thing.

5.) Open cars not being able to score points?! Where did that idea come from? Where's the merit?

6.) Open class allows mechanical geeks like us to have a lot of fun in the garage with the car. We're not doing anything earth shattering, but we enjoy developing the car.

7.) I think tire limits are potentially dangerous for any AWD turbo car, but I think it could be discussed further. Look at the WRC currently-I don't think it's working particularly well there. I don't chew up tires like Pat does(not yet anyway! ;-)). It's potentially unsafe for a car to go out on worn tires. We do check our tires for wear during an event.

8.) We've increased safety substantially over the last few years across the board, but there's room for improvement. I'll preface these remarks by saying I was a Paramedic in a past life and currently work as a Physician Assistant. People complain about the costs of safety, but it's an argument that doesn't wash at the end of the day. Any rally that you come home from is a good one. The personal and public risk is extremely high in our sport. I'd make some suggestions, but one of the keys(as mentioned in another thread) is higher quality onsite medical support. The idea of a dedicated core medical team that attends each event would be a HUGE improvement.

There have been few comments from Open class drivers/owners of late. I wasn't planning on making any comments for a couple of weeks when the dust settled a bit more-thanks for posting Dave!

As with others, I have feelings about almost every other subject discussed of late, but I'd rather go work on my car today than sit here posting. :)

Cheers! John
 

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>You guys sound paranoid.
>
>
>Peter

Why? It is a reasonable question. Where would the Mazda GTX's/Audi Quattro's/early Impreza's and the like... fit into your 'Perfect' Grope N/Proto N class? What about the 323 GTX's that are having the 1.8L BPT engine/tranny combinations installed? There is nothing 'Group N' about many of these cars.



Philip J. Boer
grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
 

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So, if one were to purchase... say a 1993 Mazda 323 GTR that has a Puegeot 206 WRC tranny that was converted to non-sequential... that would be legal for Proto-N? I seriously doubt that. There are 2 of these vehicles in Europe right now. One of the GTR's was bored and stroked to 2.0l from 1.8l... if it were done in Europe... it could be done in the US

Philip J. Boer
grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
 

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Here are my current thoughts...

Not every Open class car is a fire-breathing monster. If you take a PGT car and remove too much stuff, or upgrade your brakes, you're in Open class. If you put a urethane bushing in the wrong spot on your N car, you're in Open class. Scouring the junkyards for parts to convert your handbrake from cable/drum to hydraulic? Open class. If you nuke the Open class, you're going to have an impact on the budget-minded competitor piecing something together in order to have as much fun as they can within their budget.

The 34mm thing is in the rules, and will happen for all of the reasons previously discussed to death. So the top-end cars will feel a bit of a pinch, and I would expect the front of the pack to tighten up with Group N and Group 5 right in the mix. Let's see what happens and make decisions accordingly.

Cheers,
-Doug
 

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>>You guys sound paranoid.
>>
>>
>>Peter
>
>Why? It is a reasonable question. Where would the Mazda
>GTX's/Audi Quattro's/early Impreza's and the like... fit
>into your 'Perfect' Grope N/Proto N class?What about the
>323 GTX's that are having the 1.8L BPT engine/tranny
>combinations installed? There is nothing 'Group N' about
>many of these cars.

What are you talking about?

Did I say anything about a Proto N with in this thread, with regards to their comments?


Obviously Proto n will not happen, chill phil.


pete




>
>
>
>Philip J. Boer
>grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net
>
>Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
 

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>Here are my current thoughts...
>
>Not every Open class car is a fire-breathing monster. If you
>take a PGT car and remove too much stuff, or upgrade your
>brakes, you're in Open class. If you put a urethane bushing
>in the wrong spot on your N car, you're in Open class.
>Scouring the junkyards for parts to convert your handbrake
>from cable/drum to hydraulic? Open class. If you nuke the
>Open class, you're going to have an impact on the
>budget-minded competitor piecing something together in order
>to have as much fun as they can within their budget.
>
>The 34mm thing is in the rules, and will happen for all of
>the reasons previously discussed to death. So the top-end
>cars will feel a bit of a pinch, and I would expect the
>front of the pack to tighten up with Group N and Group 5
>right in the mix. Let's see what happens and make decisions
>accordingly.
>
>Cheers,
>-Doug


Doug,

Thanks so much for your open communication.


Peter
 

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\
>
>What are you talking about?
>
>Did I say anything about a Proto N with in this thread, with
>regards to their comments?
>
>
>Obviously Proto n will not happen, chill phill.
>

I was refering to another thread where this thought was mentioned before. Proto-N was the supposed answer.

one L in the name...


Philip J. Boer
grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
 

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Doug,
Thanks for that post. That's the reason we're in Open. We don't have a fire-breathing monster, but we like to be resourceful and we like to fabricate and upgrade things within the rules.

It's clear that our, "Open," car is quite evenly matched with the Group N, Group 2 and P-4 cars in Canada.

I think this is a result of the 34mm restrictor, of which I'm a big fan. Makes the competition tight and exciting.

Cheers! John
 

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>The 34mm thing is in the rules, and will happen for all of
>the reasons previously discussed to death. So the top-end
>cars will feel a bit of a pinch, and I would expect the
>front of the pack to tighten up with Group N and Group 5
>right in the mix.

Great, now people like Pat Richard will have a fighting chance in their Group N cars ... :+
 

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>\
>>
>>What are you talking about?
>>
>>Did I say anything about a Proto N with in this thread, with
>>regards to their comments?
>>
>>
>>Obviously Proto n will not happen, chill phill.
>>
>
>I was refering to another thread where this thought was
>mentioned before. Proto-N was the supposed answer.

But I did not in this thread. I have realized there are too many limp wristed drivers stateside.:*



>
>one L in the name...

Done :7


Peter



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>
>Philip J. Boer
>grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net
>
>Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
 

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>
>But I did not in this thread. I have realized there are too
>many limp wristed drivers stateside.:*
>
no, I was just wondering where one would place... say... a Toyota Matrix with a Celica ST205 running gear under it? Or something like that. If one can think of it... one could build anything. Nothing limpwristed about it.

Philip J. Boer
grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
 

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I totally agree with Doug and John Cassidy that the open class should not be dropped. Yes there are a couple really nice fast cars in the class but there are a lot of good solid cars that don't fit into group n or pgt. I know there are a lot of people who can't do a proper group N car and a lot of guys who really don't want to be in pgt. Open gives you the chance to have some fun with a car YOU can upgrade as your buget allows and not have to stick to super strick rules like N or pgt.
 

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Being in SCCA and CARS "Open" class and having fun doing it on a budget, I can say "no points" makes sense. We (I) don't have the cash to run at the top so why imagine that we'd get enough points to win anything. The points make it necessary to spend and win, increasing the speed needed to get the points.
Makes sense from the cheap guys' standpoint, now to hear from the fast guys...
rz
(Hoping that NASA's P2 class takes off.)
edit - what I mean is, Gets Popular!
 

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Thanks for posting Dave. I first thought about the 'eliminate Open' proposal as maybe OK, but many of the comments here are right; this is too much a place for lower budgeted cars to go.

I think the real intent and drive behind the idea to eliminate open class is to slow cars down. Weight or restrictors are the typical ways to do that. Focus on those first.

Regards,
Mark B.
 

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Yo Randy! I personally don't care much about points or championships or trophies, I'm in it to challenge myself and not have to worry about the local constabulary chasing me down. :D However, what does it matter if you track Open class points or not? I mean, why track P, PGT, G2, G5, and N but not Open? Which class you choose to hype as THE overall championship class is a completely different discussion. But I don't see any reason not to let the kids in Open tally up points and brag along with the rest of 'em.

Perhaps that's not what's meant by "no points", so I may be just wasting bits here...

Just my $0.02

Cheers,
-Doug
 

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> If you nuke the Open class, you're going to have an impact on the budget-minded competitor piecing something together in order to have as much fun as they can within their budget.

Doug, the point is: "what is the alternative to open?". It doesn't HAVE to be an expensive alternative.

What about PGT? Think about Group N is production based but everyone here complains about how hard it is to build a legal car.

PGT (&P) are production classes that allow you to run what ya brung, but it must be in relatively stock trim (e.g. brakes, engine). A production class is one way to keep costs down. There has been some very good racing in P & PGT over the years.

Rally cars cost money to build right; let's not be penny wise and pound foolish.

Someone tell me what is wrong with P & PGT as 2WD/4WD championship classes?

Glenn
 
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