Special Stage Forums banner
1 - 20 of 29 Posts

· NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
Joined
·
2,887 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Alright, I need some old timey history people to help with this one. My basic question is "Why do we say that control areas are parc ferme?"

The aspects of parc ferme that we want to have in the control zone are "no servicing" and "area is under direction of the officials".

However, the rules (plural) also say a couple of other things about parc ferme:
  1. Early check in is allowed
  2. Once you enter, you (as a competitor) must leave immediately.
  3. Only rally officials allowed

So, the rules state pretty strongly (as in, in two places) that controls are parc ferme (in the definition of controls) and that parc ferme includes controls (in the definition of parc ferme).

So there's an obvious conflict: some rules say I check in on my minute, but twice as many other rules say the area is a parc ferme, and I can check in early at a parc ferme without penalty (either by an undefined amount of time, or up to 10 minutes).

So, at time controls, obviously willy-nilly early check in is not supposed to be allowed, once you enter, you aren't supposed to leave, and as a competitor, you are allowed to be there and remain there, all of which is very much not parc ferme. But the control zones ARE parc ferme! *and then your head explodes*

It would seem much simpler to just say "servicing is not allowed in a control zone" than to call it a ferme and add this other baggage. Oh, wait, they already say you can't service in the control zone. So when was the baggage added? What brought it about? What's the hidden philosophy? What other aspects of parc ferme are really needed here when servicing is already prohibited, and when the other contradictions that aren't addressed open up these loopholes?

Because obviously (now that I've pointed it out) if you got a penalty for early check in at a stage or service, you could submit a protest saying that you were allowed to do that, because it's a parc ferme. (And if you're saying "That's crazy, no way that would fly." ask yourself if it's crazier than a ruling that says water (which puts out fires) is just as much a fuel as gasoline (which obviously burns quite nicely).)

The way to fix it seems obvious, so I'm not worried about that. I'm really more interested in learning about the history. Looking forward to positive contributions. :cool:

Anders

PS: preemptively: I like rules that are clean and where the intent matches the wording. If you don't care about that "because everyone knows" that's fine.

PPS: I codrove once. ;)

 

· Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
From my time on a dirtbike, riding ISDE style events, park ferme was used as a tool to prevent working on your bike, except within the allocated time, usually 10 minutes in the morning, and 20 minutes in the evening, and then the bike stays in impound until you check in in the AM.

Maybe the usage of park ferme in the past was more towards basing the event on reliability? Nowadays with multiple services, and the ability to work on the car all night, maybe it is not so relevant. I personally would not mind a more restrictive service format, exactly like ISDE rules. If you can't fix your car in 30 minutes at the end of the day, you should incur some time penalty. Limit to one service during the day ect.
 

· International Rallying Icon
Joined
·
683 Posts
Because obviously (now that I've pointed it out) if you got a penalty for early check in at a stage or service, you could submit a protest saying that you were allowed to do that, because it's a parc ferme.
Ah... So THAT'S how Bancalari and Felix got their early check-ins tossed at Sandblast '09!
You had to know I couldn't resist that, right? Hahaha!;)

In all seriousness, I don't recall what incident, if any, would have caused it to be designated a parc ferme. I think it's just shorter way of conveying the sentiment, "don't touch your car," and would agree that it should be changed and cleaned up in future rules revisions.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,601 Posts
I think the Rally America rule book makes the needed distinction that the term primarily functions to designate any prohibiting service, but in specific instances, is a control with special characteristics as well. That is, it's used as both a noun and an adjective.

In the NRS rules, you can see the use as an adjective, and later, under the section describing a Parc Ferme, the phrase is in use as a noun.
 

· NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
Joined
·
2,887 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I don't think they're significantly different in that the loopholes are large in both.

RA: 7.5.I.1: "A control zone is considered to be a Parc Fermé." and 1.9 (parc ferme definition) "competitors will be allowed to enter ten minutes before their start time."
NRS 2.23: "Timing control areas are considered Parc Fermé." and "There is no penalty for early check-in at a Parc Fermé."

You could say "oh, under NRS you could be really early, but under RA, only get away with being 7 minutes early to a stage" (that was running on time with 3 minutes inside the control). Both are a mess and the underlying problem is the same. The other issues (having to leave after you've checked in) are still in both. Both rule sets are espousing the same concept. CARS has a similar concept. Haven't checked FIA.

Even so, Matt, you've left my original question unanswered. Why do we say that control areas are parc ferme? (Especially when service is already prohibited in a control zone.) What specific added benefits or actions are granted, allowed, or prohibited when you already have these:
RA 7.5.A.7 "No servicing of the rally vehicle is permitted in a control zone,"
NRS 2.18.7 "A control zone is considered Parc Fermé and servicing is prohibited."

What's gained by having them also be parc ferme? Except great ammo for protests that we "all know" shouldn't fly and added unnecessary complication.

Again, looking for history here. Control zones being parc fermes and early entry being allowed goes back to my 2000 SCCA rule book.

Anders
 

· NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
Joined
·
2,887 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Or, one could ask it the reverse way: By cutting out all references in the rules to a control zone being a parc ferme, and just having the existing rules that servicing is prohibited inside a control zone (with the allowances for washing windows and lights) what changes?

Anders
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
I was concerned with the "parc ferme" wording awhile back - mostly because in a parc ferme, you must park the car, lock it and walk away from it...which doesn't work in a start control. I looked up the FIA rules to see how they handle it, and found that the wording (in English, anyway) was exactly the same. These were the SCCA rules (I said this was awhile ago), and the section came into the RA rules - and presumably the NRS rules - intact. I worked on trying to get the parc ferme wording out, but couldn't do it without making a wordy mess out of it. I suspect it's stayed in there because, despite the anomalies, it's the simplest way to accomplish what's required.

Bruce
 

· NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
Joined
·
2,887 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Don't leave me hanging Bruce.... what's required? :) (other than "no servicing")

Anders

ps: THE NRS rules were originally based on a mix of the New Zealand rules and the CARS rules, with no SCCA content. NRS didn't want to get into a "you can't use our rules" argument with the SCCA.
 

· aircooled
Joined
·
1,429 Posts
1.9 Definitions
Parc Fermé
A secured location where competitors may be required to leave their rally
vehicles. Access is granted to rally officials only; however, competitors
will be allowed to enter ten minutes before their start time. During this
time competitors are not allowed to check, tune, or repair vehicles. This
includes changing tires and refueling. Refer to Article 7.5.I.


7.5. CONTROLS
A. General Information
7. All control zones are considered Parcs Fermé (refer to Article 7.5.I).​

...
I. Parc Fermé
A Parc Fermé is an area where no checking, tuning, or repair of vehicles,
including tire changing or refueling, is allowed.
1. A control zone is considered to be a Parc Fermé.
2. A Parc Fermé may also be a location, specified in the
Supplementary Regulations, where the competitor is required to
bring the vehicle for a specified time. It shall be of adequate size
and well closed off to ensure that no unauthorized personnel may
gain access. Surveillance shall be carried out by rally officials; these
officials are responsible for its operation.
Only rally officials may enter the Parc Fermé. As soon as
competitors have parked their cars, they must leave the Parc Fermé.
They will be allowed to re-enter (or enter) the Parc Fermé ten
minutes before their re-start (or start) time; any violation of the latter
will result in a time similar to early arrival at a time control.​

It's defined twice in the R-A rule book (1.9 & 7.5). But I think the 7.5.I definition fits the spirit of the rule and is most technically correct. It's primarily a place where you can't service but could be a location defined in the supp regs.

R-A should just use the 7.5.I definition in place of the 1.9 definition. Or remove all text and leave Refer to Article 7.5.I.
 

· Cheddarwagen Pilot
Joined
·
1,828 Posts
Don't leave me hanging Bruce.... what's required? :) (other than "no servicing")

Anders

ps: THE NRS rules were originally based on a mix of the New Zealand rules and the CARS rules, with no SCCA content. NRS didn't want to get into a "you can't use our rules" argument with the SCCA.

I think the issue is with the definition of "servicing". Service refers to a specific task, and is prohibited all along the rally route.

At least with the RA rules, I don't see the loophole. Competitors may enter a parc ferme 10 minutes before their start time. This is allowed, co-drivers can walk in to the control and check the time. Parc Ferme rules do not allow the vehicle to enter early (the "everybody knows" assumption would be the vehicle is already in Parc Ferme). Parc Ferme rules also make no mention of "Check-In" The rules about parking and leaving don't apply to controls, because you can't park your car in a control.

The other piece, aside from "No Servicing" that you get from Parc Ferme, is the ability for a rally official to deem the car un-roadworthy, and demand that competitors fix the car before it leaves the control.
 

· NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
Joined
·
2,887 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The other piece, aside from "No Servicing" that you get from Parc Ferme, is the ability for a rally official to deem the car un-roadworthy, and demand that competitors fix the car before it leaves the control.
But that power doesn't comes from the parc ferme rules, at least, I don't see it listed in the above rule quotes.

The rules about parking and leaving don't apply to controls, because you can't park your car in a control.
I don't see how you could not park in a control zone. "to bring (a vehicle) to a stop and keep standing at the edge of a public way" seems like what you would have to do... unless you were slooooowly rolling along while getting your time card handled. ;) A few definitions of park also mention leaving the vehicle, but the retort could be "uh, yeah, the rule says you have to do just that".

Still looking for some history. Does anyone know anything about how it came about?

Anders
 

· Cheddarwagen Pilot
Joined
·
1,828 Posts
But that power doesn't comes from the parc ferme rules, at least, I don't see it listed in the above rule quotes.
Not quoted, but it's paragraph following what John posted, and still in Parc Ferme section:

If the organizers or the stewards consider that a car is so defective that
normal road traffic may be affected, the car must be repaired in the presence
of a rally official. The minutes needed for repair will be penalized similar to
late arrival at a time control. If the competitor cannot present the car in a
road worthy condition, to the MTC Out, during the proper start minute, a new
start time will be assigned to keep the competitor from trying to regain the
minutes lost.
Still looking for some history. Does anyone know anything about how it came about?

Anders
I am curious about this also.
 

· aircooled
Joined
·
1,429 Posts
RA: 7.5.I.1: "A control zone is considered to be a Parc Fermé." and 1.9 (parc ferme definition) "competitors will be allowed to enter ten minutes before their start time."
NRS 2.23: "Timing control areas are considered Parc Fermé." and "There is no penalty for early check-in at a Parc Fermé."
I don't see the R-A loophole. R-A says competitors (not vehicles) can enter Perc Ferme' early. I'm assuming so that they can start their car from an overnight Ferme' and warm it up in preparation to leave Ferme'. The NRS rule says early check-in. To me that sounds like timecard check-in mumbo jumbo.
I think the confusion might be in thinking that "competitor" in the R-A rule means vehicle &/or person. The R-A rule book doesn't define competitor but every instance of the word implies a person, not a competing team & their vehicle.
 

· NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
Joined
·
2,887 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The R-A rule book doesn't define competitor but every instance of the word implies a person, not a competing team & their vehicle.
I don't know... it may not be as cut and dry as you imagine.

ra rules said:
Time assigned to transit sections will take into consideration varying
speed limits, either posted or non-posted, along the route. This time
will also allow competitors to complete time control procedures at a
stage finish and will further allow for “quiet” zones.
So they drive those transits without their car?

ra rules said:
Route Book
Instructions and a map of the rally route, including all stages, transits and
service. Competitors follow the course by following the instructions in
the route book.
They run through the course on foot?

ra rules said:
Special Stage
Competition section where the road is closed and competitors run flat-out
at one (or more) minute intervals.
They really do run on foot!! ;)

ra rules said:
Transit Section
Non-competition sections that allow competitors to move from one
special stage to another. All posted and non-posted rules of the road
must be adhered to. Competitors are allowed a certain amount of time to
complete transits.
And so on...

I only looked in the first 20 pages, but it looks like there's plenty of "when we say 'competitors', we are talking about 'competitors and their vehicle'". It certainly would be simpler to address within that rule set if it was as you state.

But none of that addresses the core concept held by all sanctioning bodies that control zones are parc fermes. I can easily see, like Brian said, that it was added like a shorthand, and as Bruce said, it just stayed in there in a messy, entangled way. It's also possible that this was done before the rules for parc ferme were refined, and thus the refinements (like early check in, leaving your vehicle, etc) were added afterward, without the realization that they were being tacked onto controls as well.

Cheers,
Anders
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,099 Posts
So here's a little bit of extra confusion for everyone, maybe someone can un muddy the waters ...

@ Prescott this year the rally started with a park firme. But since we had not had the drivers meeting there is no time card , so we can't check in at all.

Park Firme was designated as starting at 2:30. Initially I parked my car in the proper area (all the cars in seed order) but then i had some servicing i wanted to do, this was at 1:30. I had not "checked in" because there was no time cards.

and i believe the rules state the rally starts at MTC1 , so there was park firme, before the rally started?

So i pulled my car out did some servicing, moved it back into the area... then backed it out one more time, swapped a coil over and re-parked it in there, all before 2:30. Drivers meeting is at 2:45 MTC 1 is at 3:00

When does the rally start? (according to NRS rules, is it MTC1 ?)
can park firme penalties apply before park firm officially starts?
can park firme penalties apply before the rally starts?

One competitor told me park firme is not only a Time but a place so by driving into the area early (1:30) i wasn't allowed to service my car anymore (pretty much everyone was cleaning windows and opening their trunks) I asked the rally organizer and he said park firme wasn't until 2:30 and i could remove my car and work on it if i wanted to.

?!? .... yes head explosion.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,099 Posts
But for how long prior to the park firme time ? the Prescott park firme was at Tims subaru. what if you drove to Tim's subaru 3 days before the rally and worked on your car in the "park firme location" penalty just because that's the location? (seems obvious, NO penalty, registration isn't even open)

so what about at 11 AM, park firme says 2:30 but the event is "open" ??

wikipedia really doesn't explain any of what i'm asking
 

· NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
Joined
·
2,887 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Alex, there's a couple of "it depends" in there. If a marshal/organizer had been in that lot at 1:30 and noted your arrival on their clipboard (without any time card being involved) then I'd say you're checked in. If it's a ghost town, then no, it's just a parking lot, you weren't checked in.

Penalties before the first time control? Sure, why not. How about getting caught speeding coming back from shakedown, that would be one. Lying on an entry form, there's another. Flipping out because someone doesn't like your cowboy hat could get you a unsportsmanlike conduct. 1.5.6 says the event starts at registration. So once you get your wristband, you can pile on all the penalties you can stand. ;)

Cheers,
Anders
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top