[Anders Green]

I went to CARSrally.com, and then to the new site, http://209.250.151.132 , and then to Downloads -> Rules and Regulations.

I ended up here and read all five documents:
http://209.250.151.132/CARSRally/Default.aspx?tabid=92

Some of the rule book seems downloadable, but it's not complete. Nothing after page B25. I'm trying to find the rules on timing...

Does anyone have a complete version or know the location? If so, could you please post here or email to anders attt pobox dot com?

Thanks!

Cheers,
Anders

 

[Jeff Hagan]

The rest of the rulebook isn't online at all. If you want to see it, you'll have to buy a paper copy from the CARS web site.

You asked about timing; Canadian timing works like this, generally: To calculate your in time at a control at the end of a road section with a special stage (i.e. stage and the following transit), take your stage start time, add the greater of your stage time (drop the seconds) or the bogey (slow) time, then add the transit time.

Example: (Stage 6 has a bogey time of 10 minutes and there's a 15 minute transit to Stage 7)

Start SS6: 14:04:00
Finish SS6: 14:11:05 (stage time - 7:05)
Due time @ SS7: 14:29:00

Start SS6: 14:04:00
Finish SS6: 14:18:30 (stage time - 14:30)
Due time @ SS7: 14:33:00

The only other wrinkle in Canada is that refueling takes place in a separate area after service. Usually this takes place during the transit. The organizers include time for refueling in the transit time, so you don't have to add anything extra yourself.

Those cover the big points; were you wondering about something more specific?

Jeff

 

[Anders Green]

Jeff Hagen said
>The rest of the rulebook isn't online at all. If you want to
>see it, you'll have to buy a paper copy from the CARS web
>site.

Ahhh. I didn't realize it was one of those deals.

>Those cover the big points; were you wondering about something
>more specific?

Yes, something more specific. NASA uses what we call "the Canadian system" of timing at most rallies, which I'm pretty sure is a cut'n'paste of your timing rules. I'm trying to understand is at controls designated as 'allowed to check in early':

"The crew will not incur any penalty for checking-in before time if the car enters the control area during the target check-in minute for the minute preceding."

It appears that at such controls you are allowed to check in early by only one minute, which is not something we police. (Again, only for controls like the very last one in the rally, that are designated as 'you may check in early') We allows (at those controls) checking in more than one minute early.

I was hoping to perhaps see this in context or ask what actually happens.

Cheers,
Anders

 

[Paul Westwick]

>... I'm trying to
>understand is at controls designated as 'allowed to check in
>early':
>
>"The crew will not incur any penalty for checking-in before
>time if the car enters the control area during the target
>check-in minute for the minute preceding."

These are two different situations. MTC, just as you're used to, allows you to check in early (by one or more minutes), and declare your time. At all other controls, you need to check in at the correct time.

At normal (non-MTC) time controls, you are allowed to cross the yellow board during the previous minute, without penalty. Your time is taken when you actually hand your time card to the marshal. The point here is to avoid the silly rush of waiting behind the yellow board until 10 or 15 seconds into the minute and then racing up to the red board, just in case the marshal's watch is a few seconds off. You can also ask the marshals what time their watches read before handing over your card.

So, there is no penalty for entering the control zone a minute early, but there is still the usual 1 minute penalty for checking in a minute early.

Paul

 

[Jeff Hagan]

Edit: Whoops... took too long to respond. Paul's post covered most of the stuff I was going to.

Here's the passage I think you're looking for (CARS NRR IV.D.11):

At the time controls at the end of a leg, of a section, of a regroup, or at the end of the event, the organisers may authorise the crews to check in in advance withouth incurring any penalty, provided that these time controls are identified as main time controls in the route book. However, drivers must request their correct time in and this requested time shall be entered on the time card not the actual time of arrival.

Jeff

 

[PeterWatt]

Be very very careful about entering before your actual time. In spite of what the rules say, this has only been the situation for the past five or six years. There are still a lot of control crews out there that aren't aware of the rule and will mark your card at the time you cross the yellow board. It can usually be corrected at the inquiry process, but why risk it.
Besides, if one is running in both Canada and the US, why not just remember one system. - Enter on your correct time.
The only time I'd cross the yellow board ahead of my in time would be if I were walking in and the control car was either out of sight, or at the top of a long hill, both of which have occurred.
Naturally, MTC's are treated differently.
I guess the bottom line is - there is a rule and there is reality. They don't necessarily agree.
Cheers,
Peter

 

[Anders Green]

Peter said:
>I guess the bottom line is - there is a rule and there is
>reality. They don't necessarily agree.

Yeah. I'd be a proponent having the rule and reality agree, and not by changing reality. (Of course, I'm talking about the NASA rules... I would not dream of interfering with the Canadian rules or making suggestions about them when I haven't run up there. I wish Canada were closer. )

Thank you all for helping to explain my own timing system to me. }( I don't think that this particular part of our rules has _ever_ been used, as no one studied this aspect enough to be comfortable with the implications.

Cheers,
Anders

 

[Paul Westwick]

>Be very very careful about entering before your actual time.
>In spite of what the rules say, this has only been the
>situation for the past five or six years.

Peter, I just checked through some of my old CARS & CASC rulebooks, and back as far as 1991 it says "Vehicles may enter the control zone on their ideal time or one minute early.", and the rule is not underlined, so that must have been the case at least as far back as 1990.

16 seasons should be long enough for marshals to have been taught the "new" rule!

Paul

 

[PeterWatt]

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you.
I did that once and was assessed a penalty and had to go through the inquiry process to have it removed at the scoring table.
I still stand by my advice to not enter the control zone before your in time and that is what I intend to do. Others can do as they see fit.
We need look no further than the seeding and start order rules to find that not even board members are familiar with all the rules or their application.

 

[Martin Loveridge]

As Paul points out you could enter the control zone a minute early, but that means passing the yellow board. Not that long ago your time was taken when you passed the red board, now it's supposed to be when the card is presented. The passing the red board is more in line with navigational rally timekeeping.

This was known as the Robertson-Crundwell rule in Ontario for some years.

However, I'm with Peter on this one. Since you are not required to enter the control zone early, and as long as you can see the time control while outside the zone, stay out until your minute comes up. Avoid creating confusion where possible.

For the workers this means less cars and noise in close proximity to distract them from their work. In the event of a stage delay then there is no choice, the control zone will be full and the workers just have to deal with it.

Martin

 

[RallyKeith]

>I still stand by my advice to not enter the control zone
>before your in time and that is what I intend to do.


What are the Rally-America rules? It's been two years since I've run an SCCA/RA event, but I thought they were so that you could only cross into the control IN your minute? That is what I have stuck in my head.

Keith

 

[Paul Westwick]

>However, I'm with Peter on this one. Since you are not
>required to enter the control zone early, and as long as you
>can see the time control while outside the zone, stay out
>until your minute comes up. Avoid creating confusion where
>possible.

I would say the exact opposite: pull in 15 seconds early, say at 12:17:45, ask the marhsal "coming up to 12:18?", then hand him the card once he confirms that his watch has gone to that minute. You will have maximized your time to prepare for the start, and, if there's another car behind you trying to check in on the same minute, (which can still happen, even under the Canadian system) they will still be able to hand their card to the marshal within that minute. Furthermore, if the marshal's watch is running slightly fast, and yours is running slightly slow, you'll still get your correct time.

If marshals never experience the application of the rule, they are more likely to get it wrong. If some events are training their marshals according to some phantom version of the rulebook that pre-dates 1990, then we need to fix that!

Paul

 

[Adrian Wintle]

>>I still stand by my advice to not enter the control zone
>>before your in time and that is what I intend to do.
>
>
>What are the Rally-America rules? It's been two years since
>I've run an SCCA/RA event, but I thought they were so that you
>could only cross into the control IN your minute? That is what
>I have stuck in my head.

That is correct. The RA rules require you to enter the control zone on your minute, while the CARS and NASA rules allow you to enter in the minute preceding. In all cases, the time recorded is the time the timecard is presented to the marshal.

Adrian

 

[Adrian Wintle]

>>However, I'm with Peter on this one. Since you are not
>>required to enter the control zone early, and as long as you
>>can see the time control while outside the zone, stay out
>>until your minute comes up. Avoid creating confusion where
>>possible.
>
>I would say the exact opposite: pull in 15 seconds early, say
>at 12:17:45, ask the marhsal "coming up to 12:18?", then hand
>him the card once he confirms that his watch has gone to that
>minute. You will have maximized your time to prepare for the
>start, and, if there's another car behind you trying to check
>in on the same minute, (which can still happen, even under the
>Canadian system) they will still be able to hand their card to
>the marshal within that minute. Furthermore, if the marshal's
>watch is running slightly fast, and yours is running slightly
>slow, you'll still get your correct time.

From the point of view of a competitor who also runs RA events, waiting until your minute means that you only have to remember one procedure that is valid for all events. If you switch procedures between events you run more of a risk of unintentionally incurring a penalty.

Adrian

 

[Jeff Hagan]

>I would say the exact opposite: pull in 15 seconds early, say
>at 12:17:45, ask the marhsal "coming up to 12:18?", then hand
>him the card once he confirms that his watch has gone to that
>minute.

Just keep in mind NRR V.A.6 when you're doing this:

The stopping time within any control area must not exceed the time necessary for carrying out control operations.

Jeff

 

[RallyKeith]

>From the point of view of a competitor who also runs RA
>events, waiting until your minute means that you only have to
>remember one procedure that is valid for all events. If you
>switch procedures between events you run more of a risk of
>unintentionally incurring a penalty.
>
>Adrian
>

Exactly why I asked

Thanks Adrian