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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I feel like I am beating a dead horse on this, but I still don't get how I can follow the rules here. If you are running a 323GTX in PGT, could you send photos of the interior of your car?

10.2.F.27 says that I cannot remove or replace the coachwork except for modifications required by the rules that precede it (plus a couple more exceptions within the same rule).

Q1. Given that the sun visors, rear view mirror, the interior lighting mounted on the headliner, a-pillar panels and the trim panels above the doors are all attached in spots that cannot be accessed because of the installation of the roll cage and its padding, can the car be run without these items (at least in stock form)?

Q2. Who makes the decision of what accessories, trim, etc. came on a particular model? Is it the factory manual? If the manual combines the model with other models and doesn't specify the model for various trim or accessories, can the trim or accessories from another model be substituted?

Actually, if I could get the two questions above answered, I think I can see through the rest of it all.

alan
 

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you have to have the stock rear view mirror in place to be production? Your supposed to build your cage around a rear view mirror?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You ended each sentence with a question mark. Are you asking a question or making a statement?

Are you saying that the roll cage tube that crosses above the dash, where the windscreen meets the roof, has to be back far enough to clear the rear view mirror mounting.

10.2.F.27 allows one to modify coachwork to comply with other rules in PGT. I classify the rear view mirror as coachwork because it is attached to the interior like other items listed under 10.2.F.27. 10.2.F.8 requires a PGT car to have safety equipment described in Article 5 (well, it mistakenly refers to Article 8, but that is another issue). 5.6.D.1 (roll cage design considerations) points out that the purpose of the roll cage is to protect the occupants. Therefore, one should be able to design a roll cage primarily for safety considerations and then modify the coachwork to fit around the roll cage.

Locating the roll cage tube that crosses above the dash at the top of the windscreen behind the stock mount point of the rear view mirror so that the stock rear view mirror mount may be retained is not as safe a design as running the tube further away from the front of the occupants (but within the body shell). Therefore, it should be legal to modify these the coachwork under PGT.

Where is the flaw in this logic?

alan
 

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The flaw is that you are using "logic" to interpret the SCCA rule book x(

The final decision for cage construction regarding safety, would be whoever issues the log book for your car.

As far as the mirror goes, the final decision would rest on whatever committee would be arbitrating your protest IF someone protests you.

I would mount a mirror to the windscreen bar (one of those little winky mirrors or something), certain states require a center mirror, even with two side mirrors. Keep the stock mirror in the service truck with a roll of duct tape, just incase someone gives you a hard time.

Good Luck,

Gabe
 

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Alan,
I have a 323 wich a race in GT Production. Here is the way my car is inside. Stock rear view mirror, stock sun visor (wich have to be down at the all time because of the roll cage), the doors are stocks no modifications at all. Carpet, floor insolation is out. Rear seat has to be in (stupid rule). Glove box is out.
The rules are pretty tricky. Here is what I think, since that car is now to hold to compete in Pro Rally Gt Production, as long as you have the rear seat in i don't think anybody from Club Rally is going to say anything if you don't have the rear view mirror or sun visor etc... Personaly I don't think this little accesorries are going to make you faster or slower. Has a competitor the only thing I will be conserne on your car is what kind of engine, turbo gear box you have and if you don't have light componant (hood, doors, fenders, hatch back) and if your car is not seam welded. The bottom line is, if you are fast everbody is going to be on your case, if you are slow nobody care what car you are driving.
Stephan
 

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>Alan,
>I have a 323 wich a race in GT Production. Here is the way
>my car is inside. Stock rear view mirror, stock sun visor
>(wich have to be down at the all time because of the roll
>cage), the doors are stocks no modifications at all. Carpet,
>floor insolation is out. Rear seat has to be in (stupid
>rule).
Why is this a stupid rule? Be glad they don't require it to be in the full upright position... Although I've always had mine up with the seat belts fastened so it looks like I could take someone along for a ride if I wanted... Even put the rusty wallace cardboard cutout in the backseat for parc expose one time.

>Glove box is out.
>The rules are pretty tricky.
No. They are clear enough. Don't make it more complicated then it has to be.

> Here is what I think, since
>that car is now to old to compete in Pro Rally Gt
>Production, as long as you have the rear seat in i don't
>think anybody from Club Rally is going to say anything if
>you don't have the rear view mirror or sun visor etc...
>Personaly I don't think this little accesorries are going to
>make you faster or slower.
My Neon had both the rear view mirror and sun visors. The sun visors had no hope of being functional.

The reason why people are concerned about "little accesorries" is this: If you have made modifications to the coachwork, knowing that the rule book specifies what can and can't be done, then you might also have felt the need to make drivetrain modifications that aren't so visible.

>As a competitor the only thing I
>will be conserne on your car is what kind of engine, turbo
>gear box you have and if you don't have light componant
>(hood, doors, fenders, hatch back)
Those items are difficult to visually see modifications to. How do you see if a Race cam is being used? Or oversize pistons (Make your 1.6 liter into 2.0?) If the coachwork is as intact as possible (taking into consideration needed changes based on safety equipment) then the car is probably entirely legal. Its generally been a very good indicator.

>and if your car is not
>seam welded.
Why would this matter to you? You don't want your competitors cars to stay together? You want the cost of maintaining a car to be higher so you don't have as many competitors? Could somebody please explain why seam welding a car is such a bid deal? Pretty much every competitive Production car the last 10 years had had at least some seam welding around the suspension attachment points. Otherwise it will have "repair" seam welding done to it. After one Rim event.

>The bottom line is, if you are fast everbody is
>going to be on your case, if you are slow nobody care what
>car you are driving.

Not entirely true. Karl Sheible didn't have anyone hassle him. He's just that fast. And his car was Super legal. Even had the bud vase... I think we will talk about his 10th overall at STPR in the same light as a Production win 10 years ago. ANY 2wd in the top 20 is getting very rare.

A different car that ran that year (1999) and was able to keep up with the Krowlikowski's in their back yard (LSPR) was a different story.

The next year Porche 911. Lots and lots of noise about its legality, but I could beat it when I kept my foot in it. It was visually legal (coachwork), and the performance was what a car with that motor should have been.

Truly illegal ProRally Production cars? Only one that I'm aware of and it only ran 4 events in 1999. I didn't have the privledge of actually getting to protest it, so I don't indeed have proof, but I'm confident that I'm right.

Build your car, do your very best to keep as much of the interior as possible intact and you will have no problems. And go as fast as you want without worrying about getting protested for being too fast.

Trevor Donison
2wd Production competitor since 1998...

New car still on schedule for later this year... My challenge is still out there...
 

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Trevor,
I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but here is what I think and I could be wrong.
The rear seat rule : I think it is stupid because when you have to bulid a roll cage around a rear seat it is a pain in the butt. So you have to go around something who shouldn't be in race car at the first place. It take room and it could catch on fire if you have to get out of the car after a crash by the back you have to climb over that seat. To me it seems stupid.
The coach work : I don't think because somebody live the coach work in his car means he is not doing anything under it.
And for the seam welded, I agree with you it make the car more reliable and should be legal. But because of cost to do it I understand why it is not. Why it matters to me, because somebody who doesn't have seam welded has to slow down if he want to keep his car in one piece. My car is not seam welded at all, still in one piece and won 2 rally out of 3 enter last season. So it is possible to win you just have to be carefull.
I am sorry if I upseted you but that what I think and I could be wrong, giving that you have more experience than me I guess people should listen to you.
Stephan
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the constructive comments.

One thing to remember is the detail in the subject line.

We have already run one event and originally built the car to Open class rules. However, the engine was basically not touched and the Open cars were much faster than the owner/driver had expected, so he decided to take the car back to PGT.

The driveline is pretty much at PGT spec. Only one thing needs to change. However, the roll cage was installed with no consideration for reinstalling the interior. Hence, the headaches on this topic.

Add to the fact that I am new to the sport and am not sure how closely the rules are enforced. (In my opinion, the rules are not written well enough to be enforced strictly, but that is just my opinion.) Also, I come from a background of writing standards and specifications, so I am in the habit of reading (and implementing) the rules closely. Finally, at our first event, we shared service with the Chismas at the Doo **** and they got protested for not following Production rules. And that was at a Club event. Our next event is a Pro (support) event and I am afraid that the competitors might be more closely observing each other for following the rules.

alan
 

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Generally it isn't a problem if there is a halfway serious attempt to put most of the interior back in, but that may be different where you are. Cut and paste the interior panels and headliner to fit around the rollcage, zip-tie the sunvisors to the cage (non-functional but in the right spot), do the same with the rear seat back if you can't jam/mangle it into the stock location. If you are really worried, save all the panel scraps, put them in trash bag, and strap that down somewhere - just not in the trunk or someone will say you're changing front-rear weight distribution:) .

Tom Bier
 

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>Trevor,
>I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but here
>is what I think and I could be wrong.
Not trying to be disagreable. If you could hear my words you would understand I was trying to be helpful much more than anything else.

>The rear seat rule : I think it is stupid because when you
>have to bulid a roll cage around a rear seat it is a pain in
>the butt. So you have to go around something who shouldn't
>be in race car at the first place. It take room and it could
>catch on fire if you have to get out of the car after a
>crash by the back you have to climb over that seat. To me it
>seems stupid.
You do end up having to take the seat out to put the cage in, but normally you can keep the plastic around the seats intact or cut what you have to to make the cage fit easy. It is a pain.

Unfortunately now to be in a competive class Prod GT is the way to go. It just doesn't have enough motor to keep up with the tons of 300+ horsepower open class cars.

The seat folded down usually only takes up 6-8 inches of room. Generally not enough to make a difference in getting out of the car. If the back seat is on fire, then you probably didn't make it out of the car. 99.99% of GTX fires are going to be some kind of turbo issue. Certainly giving you enough time to get out the back if needed.

You have to go back to 1979 when production class was first implemented. Cars were very very stock except for skid plate, rear springs and safety stuff. They didn't even change the steering wheel most of the time. So you have a VERY stock class. The rules have evolved quite a bit, but the overall intent is still to have very stock looking and appearing cars.

>The coach work : I don't think because somebody live the
>coach work in his car means he is not doing anything under
>it.
True, its not absolute, but it is one indicator a team can use to determine if its worth paying to have the car torn down.

>And for the seam welded, I agree with you it make the car
>more reliable and should be legal. But because of cost to do
>it I understand why it is not.
This is where I disagree. Start up cost? Absolutely more time and money. But overall cost? I don't think so. Here is why: I build a Neon and only do a very minimum of welding around some of the suspension points. After 6 events the front is cracking like crazy at the seams. I then weld the front to the max taking the most conservative rule book interpretation. After 2 more events I have more cracks, but in different places, so we weld those up. Next event, some of the origional welds cracked, so we had to do those again. 10th event, we had to weld cracks DURING the event 3 times. How much time and money did I then spend when I pulled the motor and welded all the cracks and repaired it enough to be good for a full season again? More than if I was allowed to build it right in the first place and get 30-40 events out of the same car.

> Why it matters to me, because
>somebody who doesn't have seam welded has to slow down if he
>want to keep his car in one piece. My car is not seam
>welded at all, still in one piece and won 2 rally out of 3
>enter last season. So it is possible to win you just have to
>be carefull.
All true. But what are you going to do when the front flexes and you have to repair it? Pull the motor and fix the problems, move all your rally stuff to a new car or Retire?

I'd prefer that you were able to seam weld it up front, or seam weld your 2nd car after you understand the sport better and be able to rally indefinately without going broke in the process. I welcome more competitors, and I welcome ways to make the cost of rallying more economical for everyone involved. Many many teams only rally 1-2 seasons and are never heard from again. Did they all of a sudden get bored with rallying? I'd say that there is only 1 reason people stop: they can't afford to continue.

>I am sorry if I upseted you but that what I think and I
>could be wrong, giving that you have more experience than me
>I guess people should listen to you.
I was not upset in the least bit. Sorry if I came across a bit strong. I'm passionate about the sport, and it was my intention to help clear up misconceptions about Production rules.

Trevor
 

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>We have already run one event and originally built the car
>to Open class rules. However, the engine was basically not
>touched and the Open cars were much faster than the
>owner/driver had expected, so he decided to take the car
>back to PGT.
This makes absolute sense. The 323 just doesn't have enough ponies with a 1.6 liter engine to keep up with the latest and greatest 300+hp cars.


>The driveline is pretty much at PGT spec. Only one thing
>needs to change. However, the roll cage was installed with
>no consideration for reinstalling the interior. Hence, the
>headaches on this topic.
You can get the interior out of ANY old 323. I had the same problem when I bought Carl Merrills old 323. I cut the pieces small enough to get around the cage and then used duct tape around the seams... Not the prettiest, but obvious to anyone that cared that a very honest attempts had been made to put the interior back in. Some teams have indeed used Zip ties to hold the back seat down. Silly, but a show to your competitors that you take class legality seriously.


>Finally, at our first event, we shared service
>with the Chismas at the Doo **** and they got protested for
>not following Production rules.
That protest should have an * by it. It was a personal issue between the two teams.
 

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Zip tying visors to the cage is plain old silly to me. The front half of my headliner is completely out because the car came with a sunroof. It I had reinstalled it it would have been 3 inches around the edge with a big hole in the middle. Stupid to do that. If some one protests me because of it, I'm sure I could find something on their car to protest if I wanted (note I said IF).

I'm really interested in the seam weld business. I think it may have alot to do with the build of the car you start with. We've been running a Subaru Legacy with no additional welding since 96, approximately 30 events, with no problems or signs of potential problems. The cage is not tied into the front either. My Impreza that I started running in 00 has had no problems either, about 9 events, same deal with the cage. (Of course I don't go balls out on the rough stuff in Maine either, I not going to win anyway, I'm out to have fun).

So maybe bottom line is it depends on the car. Start with a good one ;)
 

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>Zip tying visors to the cage is plain old silly to me. The
>front half of my headliner is completely out because the car
>came with a sunroof. It I had reinstalled it it would have
>been 3 inches around the edge with a big hole in the middle.
>Stupid to do that. If some one protests me because of it,
>I'm sure I could find something on their car to protest if I
>wanted (note I said IF).
I'll bet you the beverage of your choice that you couldn't find something illegal on my car. Even IF you wanted to. I wouldn't protest a headliner, but it wouldn't hurt to put something up there to cover the sheet metal.

>
>I'm really interested in the seam weld business. I think it
>may have alot to do with the build of the car you start
>with. We've been running a Subaru Legacy with no additional
>welding since 96, approximately 30 events, with no problems
>or signs of potential problems. The cage is not tied into
>the front either. My Impreza that I started running in 00
>has had no problems either, about 9 events, same deal with
>the cage. (Of course I don't go balls out on the rough stuff
>in Maine either, I not going to win anyway, I'm out to have
>fun).
>
>So maybe bottom line is it depends on the car. Start with a
>good one ;)

Some of it is indeed the car you start with, but the type of events is a bigger factor in my opinion. Rim, Prescott and Wild west are all harder on a car than Maine. And most of the other events closer to you are much easier on the car than Maine. You could almost lower the car for STPR (STPR has some other things about it that make it tough: long day, dust. But that isn't hard on the car, just the driver). Maine has some rough stuff, but first stage (only 1 stage) of Prescott last year was worse than running 2 maine events.
 
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