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Sucker for good roads
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looks like it was a cool, competitive event.

What happened in Group N? Did Utecht/Secor and Mitchell/Donnelly really tie, or was Mitchell 2nd, Utecht 3rd? What is a 5 second penalty and how do you earn that? (I'm getting my info from rallyamerica, and several road point numbers look funny - four teams got 5 second penaties?)

Cool that the top 2 in all classes (except GpN, where 2nd and 3rd were together, and Prod, where there was only one finisher) finished right together (although Shepherd had a big lead in Gp 5). Whiteman and Burmeister had a good Gp2 battle, but when MJ was ok he was even faster. Where was Fuller?

Himes was flying until he deprived Mad Mike of competition once again.

See you at Wild West!
 

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L1 !!! HPR into HPL
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Ya Rick, looks like it was quite an event. If Mark and Shane did tie, as the totals show, it should remain a tie ala Maine for Laughlin and Paul. More issues for you to do the scoring. Why not a quick run down either way, tie, or as posted with the final once things are sorted out?

Thanks for doing all this for us fantasy freaks, See you at WW



David Weiman
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Congrats to Lauchlin and Christian on their podium finish. One of these days------------!
 

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Sucker for good roads
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
New Tiebreaking Rule

I found the official SCCA Press Release. Since Utecht and Mitchell tied on time, it was decided to apply the FIA GpN tiebreaking procedure. Since Mitchell beat Utecht head-to-head on more stages, he was declared 2nd in class.

I'm not sure that's what I would have done. The 2003 rules do recognize GpN as an FIA class, and give them a different points system (para 9.1.F). But that point system does not match the 2003 FIA points system. (On a side note, ours is better - the new WRC system does not sufficiently reward winning relative to the other top 8 positions. But theirs is superior in that it contains a good tiebreaking system and ours doesn't.) Our 2003 SCCA rules also do not reference the FIA/WRC points system or rules, for GpN any more than they do for Open. I'm not sure why this was done. But it sure does tighten the battle! If anybody cares to explain, that'd be great.

I'm still curious about the 5-second penalties!
 

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www.christianedstrom.com
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RE: New Tiebreaking Rule

>I'm still curious about the 5-second penalties!

Cones on the first SS (pasture). Knock a cone out of its box, and you were awarded a 5 second penalty. RallyCross in a prepared Evo8, eh? :)

- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
Co-Driver
 

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Sucker for good roads
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717 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
RE: New Tiebreaking Rule

Christian -

Thanks for the great response. The 5-sec road penalties make total sense now. I can see the other is a tough issue, but the rules seem to favor a tie. Great improvement opportunity for next year's rules/wording. I'd vote to have that FIA tiebreaking procedure in all classes and in overall.

Congrats again. Really looking forward to you letting it all hang out at Wild West!

Rick
 

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>Himes was flying until he deprived Mad Mike of competition
>once again.

True... But let me be the first to Congratulate Mad Mike on his championship (perhaps a bit pre-mature, but all he needs to do at this point is pull away from the initial control at 1 of the last two rallies, which I imagine will be LSPR). He's ahead of me by 45 points, max I could gain is 44. If I finish at Wild West I get 2nd. Not bad for 4 events and a new car, but I hope some more people come and play next year.
 

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RE: New Tiebreaking Rule

When I left the post-event awards, they had not yet given out the trophies. However, Mark protested the tie-breaking decision and it had been overturned making them tied again.

Basically, the officials ruled that this is an SCCA event, not an FIA event. The SCCA Group N class is "inspired" by the FIA Group N class. The SCCA rulebook does not have any tiebreaker rule listed in it, therefore they will be scored as a tie. This was signed, dated and posted on the notice board.

Maybe it changed again after that, but it seemed rather official when I finally left.
 

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ClubRally results

Paul Bunyan's Ride
Open: Gingras, Wiktorczyk, Cienkosz
G2: M. Johnson, Freehill, Schmidt
PGT: Lafavor, Moro, Pudelek
P: Cox, Boullion
G5: Sterling, Dill

10,000 Lakes
Open: Gingras, Wiktorczyk, Keaney
PGT: Moro, Lafavor, Pudelek
G5: Dill, Sterling
G2: M. Johnson, Wiitala, Freehill
P: Cox
 

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RE: New Tiebreaking Rule

>When I left the post-event awards, they had not yet given
>out the trophies. However, Mark protested the tie-breaking
>decision and it had been overturned making them tied again.
>
>Basically, the officials ruled that this is an SCCA event,
>not an FIA event.
Absolutely.


>The SCCA Group N class is "inspired" by
>the FIA Group N class. The SCCA rulebook does not have any
>tiebreaker rule listed in it, therefore they will be scored
>as a tie. This was signed, dated and posted on the notice
>board.
>
>Maybe it changed again after that, but it seemed rather
>official when I finally left.


I find it interesting that this even came up. Why? After the 2nd overall tie at Maine, its clear that the CURRENT rule book doesn't handle how to deal with ties at an event.

ANY determination not based on the SCCA Performance rally rule book as it is currently written is wrong. The Group N competitors have competed this season based on the current SCCA rule book.

In my opinion, if the tie is broken, this would be the equivalent of changing rules in the middle of the year. That has the appearance of favoritism.

Something to keep in mind:

At the end of the year, First place in Group N is worth $25,000.00 dollars. Second place is $12,500.00. Difference is $12,500. Thats REAL money. Enough to pay for a really spiffy lawyer.


That said, it does make sense to me to break ties based on number of stages won in class. If still tied, so be it.
 

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RE: ClubRally results

>>Fair and balanced ...
>
>Watch it, you could get sued for saying that ;)

I saw a dead fox on the side of the road on the way back from Ojibwe.

'nuff said.
 

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Marketing through Motorsports
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1,385 Posts
RE: New Tiebreaking Rule

The Protest Committee upheld Mark Utecht's protest in its entirety and refunded Mark's money, saying that you can't change a rule after the event is over and that this event is operated under SCCA rules, not FIA rules even though the Group N class is inspired by the FIA definitions.

On the notice board we saw that Kurt Spitzner, who originally issued the competitor bulletin announcing the tie-breaking rule, has appealed the decision (without citing reasons), which now puts it in the hands of the PRB.

For the record, Dan C selected Bill M, Bill W and me to serve on that protest committee.

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com
 

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RE: New Tiebreaking Rule

The main reason the new FIA scoring system was not adapted was that FIA put out the new scoring system way after the 2003 rules were set.

I was not at the event and not sure what exactly happen but I do suport the FIA tie braking procedure for Grp N as it is suposed to run under the FIA rules.

-george
 

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RE: New Tiebreaking Rule

I do suport the FIA tie braking procedure for Grp N as it is suposed to run under the FIA rules

Hmmm...according to the rule book, 10.2:
A. Group N
1. Large scale series production touring cars in accordance with FIA Technical Regulations, Appendix J, Articles 251 (definitions - http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/Annexes_J-textes/251-a.pdf), 252 (general prescriptions - http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/Annexes_J-textes/252-a.pdf), 253 (safety equipment - http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/Annexes_J-textes/253-a.pdf) and 254 (http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/Annexes_J-textes/254-a.pdf).

(Note, links are my additions)

Is there another place in the rule book that relates to non-technical rules for Group N? Am I missing something? I don't see anything in our current rule book that applies a different set of operating regulations to Group N.
 

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Marketing through Motorsports
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Which takes Precedence?

Question:

The press release declared that Shane finished second and Mark third. Shouldn't it have read "they tied for second, pending appeal of ..."?

Which takes precedence--the results as decided by race officials, or the results as desired by the appealing person?

Mad Mike and others asked why anyone would even WANT to change the Ojibwe tie? You've got the tightest race of the season happening in Group N, which should be a marketing dream--why mess it up with ex-post facto rule changes?

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com
 
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