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[email protected] -> Magnetic Tree
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Discussion Starter #1
This question is being posed to someone OUTSIDE the North American Rally establishment (or at least someone who knows how non-N. American series are being run).

What would be the normal progression for a novice team (in Europe for instance)?

What types of events could they run? What types of cars? What system of route following (route book only, organizer/JEMBA notes, pace notes w/recce) is used?

Tim
 

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[email protected] -> Magnetic Tree
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Discussion Starter #2
And before you yell at me for posting this in the USA forum, the discussion will be looped back around to the arguments at large in the US rally community. }( There is a method to my madness.

And for those of you who see where I'm going with this, please, let's try to get the facts first before we launch the topic off into the realm of Internet Speculation and banter.

Tim
 

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This very question was asked on a forum where there is just a smidge more of those godless Arabiac appeasing furriners, and there some good answers.
Here is a link:
http://www.rallyforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97780
Not as many rsponses as I had hoped for, maybe you can go there and ask your question.
Friendly folks there.




John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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In Turkey you first have to Register with the Governments Youth and Sports Ministry as a licensed athlete/sportsman. Afterwards you apply for rally license (Must have valid driver license but for rallycross not necessary need to be at least 16) with FIA connected TOMSFED which is the governing body for Motorsports. Eventhough there are some minor changes for this year you can pretty much race any vehicle you like... You are not allowed to enter European Rally Championship and WRC if you are a beginner... This year, beginners are classified as "C License". Licensing fees are beyond ridiculous. There are some movement taking place recently with Amateur racers organizing but fees are nearly 800 bucks (US that is)... and yes they got rid of 6 zeros from the currency which means not everyone in Turkey is a Turkish millionaire anymore :9

Eventhough currently there is no "clubrally national Championship" there are some local championship series. Entry fee including insurance is about 200 bucks. In the club rally program the cars do not have to have current homologations. For the national rallies everything has to be kosher, unless you are competing in Grp H.(? I am not fully sure on this)

You are even allowed to race a Group B (from what i read might be some Manta 400s being prepped) only in the Clubrally races...

So basically getting the license is no problem except the fact that it costs more than anywhere else in the world...


Forgot to mention National rallies can only competed with a national license which means you have to spend more money...
I think it would be the perfect place to impose Group F with the unlimited amounts of cheap European crap like Renaults, Fiats so on... After reading on it here, I even suggested but to no avail.
 

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[email protected] -> Magnetic Tree
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Discussion Starter #6
OK, not real easy to figure this out, but here's what I've gathered so far.

In Europe, a novice team isn't allowed to compete in an AWD car and are not allowed to run events where Pace Notes/Recce is allowed.

If you look at the British championship for instance, you must hold an International license to compete. The only exception to that is the "Start of the Future" category (requires a National "A" license for the driver) which restricts you to a < 1600 CC engine (Turbo is a 70% multiplier) and 2wd! And a National "A" is two grades from the bottom!

I haven't found any event regulations online for the true "club" rallies where a Clubman or National "B" licensed driver could compete, but I suspect that I'll find that you are not allowed recce or AWD cars at these events - or if they do, then you must have a National "A" license to run them.

Bottom line, I don't think that the argument that "you can run AWD Turbos and Pace Notes in the rest of the world" holds up. If anything, Europe is MORE restrictive than the RA and NASA are right now.

The other interesting thing that I've been seeing is that to get your initial licence in most places, you must pass a written test, oral test, and driving evaluation - and often complete several non-stage format events before you get a license to compete in a stage rally.

And yes, there are some places where the warm body and money to burn issue is still alive, but it looks like they are getting fewer and fewer. In general, the places that you can start out in a fire breathing monster car with recce and pace notes are getting pretty scarce.

Now, someone jump in here and prove me wrong. :)

Tim
 

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>OK, not real easy to figure this out, but here's what I've
>gathered so far.
>
>
>I haven't found any event regulations online for the true
>"club" rallies where a Clubman or National "B" licensed driver
>could compete, but I suspect that I'll find that you are not
>allowed recce or AWD cars at these events - or if they do,
>then you must have a National "A" license to run them.
>
>Bottom line, I don't think that the argument that "you can run
>AWD Turbos and Pace Notes in the rest of the world" holds up.
>If anything, Europe is MORE restrictive than the RA and NASA
>are right now.

>
>Now, someone jump in here and prove me wrong. :)
>
>Tim
In Sweden you can, after the initial requirements buy and use a homologated turbo 4wd car, or an expired turbo 4wd car
even as a C driver.
Not many swedes are as deluded as seems so common here to WANT to do that, but you can and 2-3 guys per event do.






John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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The biggest difference is that in the rest of the world is that you have to belong to a recognized Motor club to even be allowed to apply for a license. It gives you a group of mentors that are to a certain extent there to look out for you. I've been spending a lot of time in the UK recently and have rejoined one of the MC I was a member of for many years, I had forgotten how important they really are to answering all those little questions and teaching you the way to do it right.

Club events have relatively few restrictions on what can be run, usually classes for clubman B9-12 (B9 <1400cc, B10 1401-1600cc, B11-1601-2000cc B12 >2001cc), N1-4 and A5-8. Most don't have recce, some provide notes (far more than just a few years ago) and the supps always tell you which maps (and which edition) you need to cover the rally route. You certainly see WRC cars and some rather exotic AWD and 2WD modified cars at events.

If you screw up at a club event you 1) Don?t get invited back, and 2) Never get to upgrade your license. The steward of the event has to sign the back of your license to allow you to upgrade, I have no idea how many sig's it is now, but it used to be 6 to go from restricted to National B, 6 more to go to National A, 6 more to International C and so on with a changing mix of single venue and multi venue events required as you move forward

To get the initial restricted "clubman" license you must be a member of a motor club, have a valid drivers license, take a one day track school (in a school car, not your own), oral and written test and satisfy the instructor you are not too big a danger to be let out. This allows you to take part in single venue events, essentially large rally-sprints. Once you have started on the license upgrade path you can get behind the wheel of pretty much anything.

Dave
www.davekean.com
 

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www.christianedstrom.com
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What John says is true, but the general climate and economics of rallying in Sweden makes the practice of buying a 4wd car very very rare. That is, ambitious young drivers are steered toward NA 2WD cars where they can measure their talent against other amibitious young drivers in identical cars. And they can't afford Evos or STis regardless.

I just returned from Vinterpokalen, which is an SM (Swed. Championship) event. Out of 50 entries, probably 75% were 2WD normally aspirated cars. Almost 50% of the total entries were N2 Renault Clios. Guess which guys looked like they were pushing the hardest?

- Christian


Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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>What John says is true,
>
Almost 50% of the total entries were
>N2 Renault Clios. Guess which guys looked like they were
>pushing the hardest?
>
>- Christian
Va fan säger du, grabben?
Pushing on snow??
Is that a concealed slagging of the froggie-mobiles?

Man I've had to push start my ol Pug 404 diesel in the winter on snow uppe i Upplands-Väsby ( a desolte wasteland somewhere in Lappland 2,5 mil norr om Stockholm) and THAT took some hard pushing!!!
Say what you will, Iäve seen Frech cars that actually run!




John 'jag fattar int' Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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Not pushing "shoving in the snow" and not pushing "understeering."

Pushing as in, driving the living crap out of it. Those N2 cars used to be such little boxes, but they're really quite nice now, with good gearboxes and proper parts. And when you have 25 guys running them, they sure do have to drive fast to win.

It was pretty cool that some basically unknown kid from republiken Jämtland beat Zachrisson, who is supposed to be the next great Swedish junior. But Zachrisson looked really good too.

Point is, I guess, similar cars and lots of entrants begets good competition. Two 28k stages, won by 3 to 5 seconds each. That is good competition.

- Christian "Fan den jäveln plogar!"

PS: I have one extra tube of messmör if you send me your postal address.

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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Well, in Portugal you can get either a clubman or national license which allows to run Gr. A (no WRC or over 2 liters or kit cars over 1.6 liters), Gr. N or Super 1600 cars in the national and regional events. You can initally get the national license if you want to pay a premium over the regional and drive a 4WD turbo car. No drivers school is required. There's a European Union license and the FIA license. To qualify for the EU license I think you need to finish two rallies.
 

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Those N2
>cars used to be such little boxes, but they're really quite
>nice now, with good gearboxes and proper parts. And when you
>have 25 guys running them, they sure do have to drive fast to
>win.
>
>It was pretty cool that some basically unknown kid from
>republiken Jämtland beat Zachrisson, who is supposed to be the
>next great Swedish junior. But Zachrisson looked really good
>too.
>
>Point is, I guess, similar cars and lots of entrants begets
>good competition. Two 28k stages, won by 3 to 5 seconds each.
> That is good competition.

Ingen plojar där va?
Well we may finally be seeing the rudimentary beginnings of folk gravitating towards 'våran' Grupp F, I've had stacks of calls and inquiries about Ovlovs and Xratties, people seem to be sensing the idea of doing less, spending less on the car so more can go into the spec and getting more out and seem to WANT TO FIGHT, not just cherry pick some lame slow restrictive class.
Plötsligt det känns som det finns Hopp (!), efter tjugo år.
>
>- Christian "Fan den jäveln plogar!"

Ja jamen pojkarna måste plåga motornarn som fan
>
>PS: I have one extra tube of messmör if you send me your
>postal address.

Tusen tack men....
Ja' plaskar iväg till Folkrebuliken Kina på måndag, fru'n min ska kläcka ett söt Höns om ett par veckor, ja blir far alltså.
Oi oi oi!!!
Det som jag längtar efter är Slotts Skånska senap!!
>
>Bjorn Christian Edstrom
>www.christianedstrom.com
 

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<<< but it used to be 6 to go from restricted to National B >>>

Used to be 3 way back when. Obviously they're getting stricter.

Can't see me in your mirrors?
I must be in front of you!
 

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In the U.K. there are certain schools that will qualify you for a national A license as I remember or if you know someone it is just up to the $ (or hsould I say pounds) either way most motorsport all over the world throughout history has jsut had $$ as an obstacle to entering in any class you want it jsut depends on who you know.
 

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>And yes, there are some places where the warm body and money
>to burn issue is still alive, but it looks like they are
>getting fewer and fewer. In general, the places that you can
>start out in a fire breathing monster car with recce and pace
>notes are getting pretty scarce.

It's actually almost all places :) The general concensus elsewhere in the world is that a certain license will allow you to compete in certain events; not get you in a specific classed car. Money is still the very deciding factor.
Also, budget rally cars like N 1-2-3, A 5-6, rally cars are far more easy to find maintain and run elsewhere. The lack of such cars and parts in US market makes it a bitter choice, I guess.
(We were toying with the idea of a one-make-series in 2WD hatchbacks that shouldn't cost more than $20K for the whole year including everything; we couldn't find a suitable car platform available toUS market; any ideas?)
 

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We had the same idea suggested it to people and were told that 20k is "way too much money" and "a total ripoff" so I think that people are still not open to that idea. There are plenty of suitable platforms of which some are homologated as well.
 

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The Renault Clio Cup that was so popular in Sweden had N2 cars that cost $44,000 fully prepped, with the exception of rally computer and intercom. That included seats (Sparco Evo), cage (Matter, welded) and suspension (Ohlins gravel). One benefit of these cars were that you could take them abroad and still be quite competitive.

The prize money was approximately $3000 per event to the winner, with $20,000 for the series winner. Also, they had parts support and catering on-event for all the Clio Cup participants.

All that said, a spec series doesn't make any sense unless the manufacturer or distributor is part of the equation and can underwrite some of the costs.

- Christian





Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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>We had the same idea suggested it to people and were told
>that 20k is "way too much money" and "a total ripoff" so I
>think that people are still not open to that idea. There are
>plenty of suitable platforms of which some are homologated as
>well.

Similar feedback in-here unfortunately. People 'wisely' don't keep track of their seasonal expenses, so they don't realize that's 'about' the cost of 6 events/year; only to start from the same level next season.
The cost of the car itself and it's rally prep. work aside, our conservative budget feasibilty came out about $17K from tires to transport to entry fees, everything you can imagine to run 6 rallies/year in US. Anybody doing it less than that in any car must be working wonders, I'd like to hire them to run my car(Oh BTW, I'll require at the start of every event: the entry fees and car insurance paid, at least 6 new tires to chew on, the car in 'tip-top' shape, crew-gas-food-maintenance at each service area.)
It's good to know that I'm not the only person, who would rather lease a rally car so that they can just go to an event and drive without 'the issues related to the car' in the back of their mind. (Isn't this exactly how champion drivers start and/or develop their careers in many forms of motorsport?)
Although the main idea is to provide an affordable, reliable alternate to competing in rally events, our idea however is also aiming a unique media exposure, a career opportunity, and more importantly a level playing field for novices, semi-pro's, or a like.

It still shouldn't put us off. 3 cars shouldn't be too bad to start with, although the cost of running 8 cars is a lot more cheaper :)
 

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>The biggest difference is that in the rest of the world is
>that you have to belong to a recognized Motor club to even be
>allowed to apply for a license. It gives you a group of
>mentors that are to a certain extent there to look out for
>you.

Right. Clubs. Is there anybody here that is a member of a car club that meets regularly?
I belong to the JVAB MK, and have been attending meetings semi-regularly for the past many weekends. And I happen to have a running (but still unfinished) car because of it.



>If you screw up at a club event you 1) Don?t get invited back,
>and 2) Never get to upgrade your license. The steward of the
>event has to sign the back of your license to allow you to
>upgrade,

Two BIG ideas here:
1- there is a CLEAR progression for advancing through the ranks.
--- X events at local level
------X events at regional level
--------X events at national level
You can't start at national level. Period. (maybe you can bribe a bunch of stewards to sign off on your license, most ppl can't do that)

2- there are PENALTIES if you screw up.
--- make somebody mad, and you don't get to advance.



>To get the initial restricted "clubman" license you must be a
>member of a motor club, have a valid drivers license, take a
>one day track school (in a school car, not your own), oral and
>written test and satisfy the instructor you are not too big a
>danger to be let out.

So there are PREREQUISITES to getting even a club license. Makes sense to me! Maybe if I knew what the prereqs were to get a license in this country...
 
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