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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone with experience, care to comment on what the rest of the world does with blind rally vs. notes?

I'm going out on a limb and assuming they're widely used (including novices) in Ireland.

This seems to be a highly polarized topic.
 

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Unlimited recce allowed in Italy in divisionals. Recce is an event into the event there, with spectators filling the stages and competitors using recce cars that would put some N.A. rally cars into shame....
3 recce passes on Nationals.
There is no such thing as blind events.

Alex Gelsomino
www.alexgelsomino.com
 

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We were told that in the UK only the WRC event allows recce. At national events - and many lesser events - three independent companies/individuals offer stage notes. You buy the ones you like...or don't use them. They have the advantage of a large number of rallies in a relatively small area, so notes preparation can be a profitable business.

I didn't ask what the requirements were for novices. Somebody on this forum is bound to know.

Bruce
 

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Finland GroupF is blind, you may want to do some research on that... here's a post from another board from a while back

>>>>>>>

Well my friend,
I wouldn't say so. What you apparently have misunderstood is the blind nature of group F rallying seen in the pics and videos above.
When you don't have pacenotes, and a corner tightens you're in problems.
The basic psychological-philosophical background is the fact that 90% of the corners seem tighter than they are, which encourages you to take risks. But the challenge is in the remaining 10% which are tightening. And you never know wich corner is among the 10%... It's only natural that the accidents happen no matter your skills.
Marcus Grönholm drives a blind rally every now and then, and you would be surprised how much challenge he's got there. In Hankiralli he won the competition if I remember right by only three seconds despite driving with Basti Lindholm's 206WRC! And last time he started he was among those heroes seen in the pictures and went off in a tightening lefthander...
You would also be amazed of the average speeds in blind rallying, it's natural to have an average speed of 110 to 125 km/h in a blind rally, that is not much less than in a normal pacenoted rally. Without no knowledge of the road whatsoever!
What interests me in blind rallying is the maximum adrenaline rush you got by biting your teeth and saying to yourself, "flat out perkele!", entering a blind corner with risk... This is something you can't enjoy in the clinical world of pacenoted rallies.
 

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>We were told that in the UK only the WRC event allows recce.

This is not totally true, events in Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Jersey and so on have all allowed recce and notes for decades. It's just in England, Scotland and Wales that it's less common. 12 years ago notes were unknown and untill the early 90's even the WRC round was a blind.

Some BRC events allowed recce a few years ago. BTRDA and most regional championship events offer notes of some type.

Most club and single venue rallies are blind, but not blind in the way US events are and done off maps. The supps will actually list the maps and revisions you need to cover the events. The thought of just being given a route book and sent out onto the stage is very alien.

There are maybe 500-600 rallies every year in the UK ranging from WRC to single venue events (a 30 stage miles rallysprint around an old airfield or simular) each with 100 plus entrants, which gives people like note producers a whole different level of economic viability.

>I didn't ask what the requirements were for novices.
>Somebody on this forum is bound to know.

A decade ago novices got a restricted license that only allowed low level rallies (long rallysprints esentially). You had to finish 6 events satisfactorily and get the steward of the event to sign off before you got a national license. Now I'm told you have to go to a 1 day race school that includes track/stage time with an instructor before you get a license, the instructor has to sign off to allow you to apply for a restricted license.

Dave
www.davekean.com
 

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>>We were told that in the UK only the WRC event allows recce.
>
>This is not totally true, events in Northern Ireland, Isle
>of Man, Jersey and so on have all allowed recce and notes
>for decades. It's just in England, Scotland and Wales that
>it's less common.

Thanks, Dave. These WERE Welshmen, Scots and the odd Brit I was talking to...not an Irishman in the bunch. :)

Bruce
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Now I'm told you have to go to a 1 day race school
>that includes track/stage time with an instructor before you
>get a license, the instructor has to sign off to allow you
>to apply for a restricted license.
>
Dave,
Does the restricted license prohibit the driver from using notes, or does it limit his choice of cars, or both?
 

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<<< These WERE Welshmen, Scots and the odd Brit >>>

Bruce, What did they morph into?


Can't see me in your mirrors?
I must be in front of you!
 

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>Dave,
> Does the restricted license prohibit the driver from
>using notes, or does it limit his choice of cars, or both?

It did not used to limit anything, but that was more than a decade ago I last looked at the requirements. AWD cars were not as common and notes were not used (and still not used) at the level of events a novice could enter.

It did require the driver to meet certain driving standards and finish 6 events to get what is the equivalent of a Club-rally license.

I've e-mailed a friend in the UK to find out what the current requirements and restrictions are for new license holders.

Dave
 
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Re: Blind rallies in Finland

This is largely a myth. There is a rally every weekend in the small county of Finland.

Most people, including at the lowest levels, practise most known stages, legally or illegally. As a result, the drivers know the stages by heart (not unlike several top people in US rallying who went over those stages many, many times over the decades and some of them with pace notes)and some drivers can rattle off pace notes from memory.

There is a good article about this by a Finnish reporter, without any experience as a co-driver, whom Vatanen took with him as a co-driver on one event when Vatanen just started as a novice in the Finnish National Championship. Vatanen told him: "Do not worry about the Route Book, I know the stages." They won the event nonetheless.

Ivan Orisek
 

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In Portugal national, regional and historic championships follow the FIA format, thus doing recce and notes.
 

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Yes, I have also heard that a lot of people in Finnish rallying know the stages by memory. So "blind" rallying gives the competitive and safety advantage to those who have run there before or are local and can drive the roads all the time.

Anyway, just for curiosity sakes, here are pictures of a couple of pages from a Finnish "blind" route book (they look fairly similar to ours):

http://www.akk-motorsport.fi/saannot/Saannot2004/2004RalliLiite4.html
 

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i dont read finnish but it looks like the left page is a transit and the right one is the stage.

wow 14 km and only 5 instructions!

i like the second corner illustration in the 4th column.
 

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I believe nearly all Swedish rallies have gone to jemba notes.

And I should add to the posts about 'non noted' events.
It's clear the organisers are noting only the things which maybe require CAUTION like T and narrow bridge, I presume the drivers know there are hundreds of little curves and bends on a typical stage.

And many Finns suggest that it is their so called 'blind' rallies, and the emphasis on frequent events and driving which is the 'school' which teaches the seeminly endless supply of Finns who are capable of top WRC results, and they point out that their neighbors just top the West have really not produced any newe guys since Ericsson and mats Jonsson who are really capable at the top.
And some in Finland suggest that it _will not_ occur since thejemba notes are the norm.
But what the hell do a bunch of drunk Finns know about rally?
One guy was named Pentti Arikkala, but he's old so he can't know anything.



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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marcus has said that many times. if you can decipher his mumblings and yeah sure's. i love that guy.
 
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