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don't cut
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Hey what's everyone's consensus on notes in stand alone clubrallies? An organizer friend mine I recently talked to said they are seriously considering doing notes becuz they think that SCCA risk management is going to require it in a couple years, and they might as well start now. We can bitch all we want, but you'll never trump risk management, so if it's true there is no use arguing that point. But in general are notes a good idea for club rallyists?

I say NO, and here's why:

1. When learning to drive, notes are way too much info, and a new driver will be confused, etc......

2. New drivers may not learn important road reading skills.

3. It adds cost to an already expensive sport, especially at the bottom end where there won't be much benefit (see above two).

4. More hassles for organizers who are supposedly doing this for "fun".

5. I think notes could provide a meaninful distinction between pro and club.

6. It may allow unskilled drivers to more easily drive past their abilities (this is highly debatable, and I'm not sure about it).

7. It will place a lot more onus on codrivers, in an environment where good codriving isn't always readily available.

Don't get me wrong, I love notes, but only for pro races. I still enjoy the challenge of bling rallies (and I'm usually almost as fast), and I'm glad I learned that way. I'm not in favor of banning notes for club rallies, that way races like Cog can still do the notes as part of the petitioning process for Pro status. I'm just in favor of discouraging notes for average stand alone club events. Am I on the right or wrong side of the fence here?

Dennis Martin
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920-432-4845
 

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For what it's worth, The ClubRally Stewards were asked on their recent call whether notes should be available at the ClubRally National Championship events. The unanimous opinion of those on the call was that the CRNC should not use notes. We didn't even discuss the costs involved.

I have my doubts about Risk Management requiring something like notes, for some of the reasons Dennis cites above.

Bruce
 

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Bruce,

I'm glad to hear that. The use of notes might be good way to distinguish Pro from Club now that age limits have been removed from ProRally. Disallow notes in ClubRally....but step-up to them in ProRally if you want too.

Might also be a good reason to abolish dual entries at combined events.

My only interest is ClubRally and I have always thought they should be run Blind...for all the reasons.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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(I was on that call.)

My personal feeling is: Learning to co-drive involves enough difficult stuff already. I wouldn't want to jump into a car for the first time, knowing NOTHING, and have two figure out why there are two books, what all this means, cautions, etc.... WAY too much for first timers.

Notes are definitly a "next level" for both co-drivers and drivers. Notes are fun, and I like using them, but I'm very glad I didn't START with them or have them early in my driving.

ANders
 

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straight at T
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Dennis;

That was my basic take on it too. One of my drivers made a comment that made me agree with #6 (he has a fair amount of experience and is generally quite a conservative driver).

Adrian
 

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I drive the car.
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I want to see notes at every level in NA rally. I believe it's a safety issue as well. In my opinion notes make rallies safer at every level.

Notes do not have to make the entry fees higher either. I don't see a need per say for the Jemba system. An organizer could do like what they did at Cog this year and have the organizer go and do recce for all of the teams. Of course it would be more work for the organizers but I bet someone would gladly volunteer to do this. I would if I was not planning to compete in a given event. The notes would still be the same for everyone.

I've been flamed on this board in the past on this subject but I'm not shy on this one. To me the fact that we have to interpret someone else?s drawing of a corner is ridiculous. I know it's been done like this for years but still it's lame and not as safe as full on recce and notes. Even with the great route books we have here in the NW I still wish there were more instructions. What about the events back east? I don't even want to talk about the Rim route book (3 miles between instructions!)... Notes are WAY better and WAY safer.



Flame away,


Charles
Viva le MR2 #295!!!
 

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Faster !!!!
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How do navigators start out in other parts of the world where
they run notes (or maps ! ) exclusively ?


My $0.02:

Allow notes at clubrallies - only for seed 6 and above.
ALSO have route-books at all club rallies.

Best way to learn notes is to allow recce
(even just one pass ... that's how I did 'em my first time ...)

Flame Away !

:+

Oh yeah, with respect to the following:


>1. When learning to drive, notes are way too much info, and a new driver will be confused, etc......
....Seed 6 and above ONLY


>2. New drivers may not learn important road reading skills.
....Seed 6 and above ONLY


>3. It adds cost to an already expensive sport, especially at the bottom end where there won't be much benefit
>(see above two).
...a cost that is well worth it . . . notes will help you
(and your navvie) to be faster, much sooner than buying one more
tire (the cost of notes) ...


>4. More hassles for organizers who are supposedly doing this for "fun".
...much less hassle if we can get away from the current monopoly
which exists in note writing in this country.


>5. I think notes could provide a meaninful distinction between pro and club.
. . . I've spoken to quite a few PRO competitors who wished that
they had someplace to practice notes (club events) other
than ProRallies . . .


>6. It may allow unskilled drivers to more easily drive past their abilities (this is highly debatable, and I'm not sure
>about it).
... No matter what you are doing - If you drive past YOUR limits
it is YOUR fault... know your limits and don't exceed them
(unless you like crashing ! )


>7. It will place a lot more onus on codrivers, in an environment where good codriving isn't always readily
>available.
... They'll learn !
 

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I am gonna get flamed for this but...

I disagree. For personal reasons & because I have had 2 first time co-drivers now.

Jamie started without notes, like me. With the variance in route books that we came across, the codriver could never get a great handle on being consistent from one rally to the next. SnoDrift 03 was very well written *for the first 8 stages or so. Then, it became very poorly written. It was not consistent, even within the single rally.

Josh started this LSPR WITH stage notes. First time codriving, right away with notes. Numeric. He LOVED it. Except for Gratiot near the end(like 5 pages of notes per 1/2 mile?) where he got lost. I simply asked how far to the end, & told him to sit tight & not say anything.
That is when you just have to read the road. But he adapted MUCH easier than Jamie, because he could read the notes in order, without big gaps of info that can confuse the codriver between tulips.

Personally, I will be really bummed if I cant get notes in Club at all. I would be forced to run Club until I am allowed in Pro, then I would be forced to spend more money to rally, when I'll never have the money to compete with you guys. That may very well put the cabash on my rallying.

I feel it is IMPOSSIBLE to "read" the road in all circumstances. Blind hills & corners just arent as fun for us with slow cars, cuz lifting means losing LOTS of speed. Dennis, I can see where it doesn't slow you down much, cuz you've got the power & grip to recoup speed way faster.

With that said, yes, people may drive slightly over their head with notes. But I can tell you that, like a drug, the addiction is far stronger for me now that I've tasted notes. I dont ever want to run blind again. It just isn't as fun for me.

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com
 

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your other left, you idiot
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Notes are akin to virginity.

Once you have crossed over, it is difficult to go back.

press on,

> But I can tell you that, like a drug, the
>addiction is far stronger for me now that I've tasted notes.
>I dont ever want to run blind again. It just isn't as fun
>for me.
>
>JC
>#595
>www.gnimotorsports.com
 

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The one thing that makes notes safer is their consistency. If they are made by a single consistent method (as US ProRally notes are) or by two or three professional noters (as most UK rallies are) that consistency exists. If the organizer can do whatever notes he wants, there is no more consistency that with routebooks.

This appears to be the reasoning behind the PRB's decision to allow ClubRallies to use notes, but only if made by the same organization that does the ProRally notes.

Bruce
 

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I can argue both sides of this subject but after running notes at Tall Pines I hate to go back to the route book. Actually we only ran notes for the first five or six stages and had to revert to the route book when my navie couldn't keep the roast beef down. With all the crests, running notes is so much better. It felt so much safer even though we were probably faster. Knowing what was on the other side of the crest was priceless. When Bernie was sick and the calls from the route book were 1.5km to next instruction, which was only junction, why even bother. There were so many R4-/cr eqivalents, not in the route book it was questionable as to its usefulness.

I do agree that its important to learn to read the roads. The few times Bernie got lost in the notes and after he was sick meant I had to do just that. But notes are awesome and you need to learn them sometime. Maybe Seed 6 and up is the right call but I'm glad we had the chance to try them before that.

Gary #893
Loose Nut Racing
1990 Eagle Talon PGT

Still a seed 8, but not for long.
 

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> I
>don't see a need per say for the Jemba system.

Jemba notes provide near-100% accurate, consistent notes, that are superior to any other organizer notes. There are possibly 2 and likely 0 people in North America who could make notes with accuracy even approaching Jemba notes. Any perceived lack of need of an accurate system stems from a lack of understanding of the system.

>An organizer
>could do like what they did at Cog this year and have the
>organizer go and do recce for all of the teams.

This is incorrect. Colorado Cog used Jemba Notes, prepared by Arne Johansson, this year.

>Of course it
>would be more work for the organizers but I bet someone
>would gladly volunteer to do this. I would if I was not
>planning to compete in a given event. The notes would still
>be the same for everyone.

You grossly underestimate the effort and skill needed to generate quality organizer notes.

The key to notes is their accuracy in describing the road, not that they're "the same for everyone." A rally in Sweden used hand-written organizer notes (NOT JEMBA) this year, and something like 35 cars went off at the same corner. Those notes were clearly consistent, but they weren't accurate.

> Notes are WAY better and WAY
>safer.

Well, accurate, consistent notes are. :)

>Flame away,

Oh dear, I think I have.

>Charles

- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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After my first year I'd have to say that notes made us safer, faster and we had more fun.

When Im trying to make up a couple of sec's the first place I start taking chances is on guessing whats over the crest or on the other side of the curve. With notes their is no guess work so I work on carrying more speed where I think its safe to do so.

I think seed 8 drivers should be excluded though. Thats just too much for the first rally.
 

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I have run both, I like the route book and will choise to use the route book at all club rallies. Club rallies with Pro events and notes provide plenty opertunity to learn notes at.

Anything that lets you go faster around a blind turn is not safer, there are varibles like rolled cars sometimes around blind turns, I know I have found them. As they had just rolled the tirangles where not out, they where not even out of the car.

Notes make a lot of since when you have out of town drivers trying to win something, it levels the field. But that is not club rally club rally is a area to develoup driving skills and team skills.

Derek
 

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>
>Notes make a lot of since when you have out of town drivers
>trying to win something, it levels the field. But that is
>not club rally club rally is a area to develoup driving
>skills and team skills.
>
>Derek

And notes have nothing to do with developing driving skills and team skills? I will have to respectfully disagree.

Gary
 

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I drive the car.
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>> I
>>don't see a need per say for the Jemba system.
>
>Jemba notes provide near-100% accurate, consistent notes,
>that are superior to any other organizer notes. There are
>possibly 2 and likely 0 people in North America who could
>make notes with accuracy even approaching Jemba notes. Any
>perceived lack of need of an accurate system stems from a
>lack of understanding of the system.

Let me clarify and say that at the club level Jemba is or may be too expensive.

While organizer notes may not be as consistent as Jemba from event to event or provide the high level of information, they can provide much more (needed) information than tulip style route books at a more reasonable cost.


>
>>An organizer
>>could do like what they did at Cog this year and have the
>>organizer go and do recce for all of the teams.
>
>This is incorrect. Colorado Cog used Jemba Notes, prepared
>by Arne Johansson, this year.

Oops? I thought there was an event this year that ran a recce style of notes. Was there?
>
>>Of course it
>>would be more work for the organizers but I bet someone
>>would gladly volunteer to do this. I would if I was not
>>planning to compete in a given event. The notes would still
>>be the same for everyone.
>
>You grossly underestimate the effort and skill needed to
>generate quality organizer notes.

Alright, here you don?t know what the heck your talking about. You don?t know me or what I have or have not done.

I have spent countless hours in the woods with my navigator practicing recce. I?m ready for the time that I do get to create my own notes.


>
>The key to notes is their accuracy in describing the road,
>not that they're "the same for everyone." A rally in Sweden
>used hand-written organizer notes (NOT JEMBA) this year, and
>something like 35 cars went off at the same corner. Those
>notes were clearly consistent, but they weren't accurate.

I would hope the course opening car would catch a major screw up like this?
>
>> Notes are WAY better and WAY
>>safer.
>
>Well, accurate, consistent notes are. :)
>
>>Flame away,
>
>Oh dear, I think I have.

Thanks for the high quality flame! I enjoyed it for a change! :p
>
>>Charles
>
>- Christian
>
>Bjorn Christian Edstrom
>www.christianedstrom.com

NEXT?


Edit: Poor choices of words.
 

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codriveur
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While I was typing this my driver (Gary) chimed in so it's a little overlap from the same car.

Having just used notes for the first time @ Tall Pines, and having only done Maine Forest this summer without notes.
I submit the following:

1. When learning to drive, notes are way too much info, and a new driver will be confused, etc......

When is the co-driver supposed to learn? If it is a long term team enviroment shouldn't they learn together? During Tall Pines my driver said he didn't hear the notes the first 2 stages and when he did after that I will testafy it gat a lot smoother and I as the codriver started to "get" it.

2. New drivers may not learn important road reading skills.

That's like saying you need to learn sign language before you pick up a book.

3. It adds cost to an already expensive sport, especially at the bottom end where there won't be much benefit (see above two).

Any serious hobby costs money. You ever look in a Cabella's or Northern Hydraulics catalogue? Isn't Rallysprint a low cost easily accesible entry level?

4. More hassles for organizers who are supposedly doing this for "fun".

Point conceeded. But it is an area to open up the profit margin. I will thank them even more for what they do.

5. I think notes could provide a meaninful distinction between pro and club.

Pro in every other form of motorsport I am familiar with means prize money and all the costs accosiated with it. Club or amatuer or novice or rookie or beginner or whatever else you want to call Club means NO MONEY and all the fun that goes with it.

6. It may allow unskilled drivers to more easily drive past their abilities (this is highly debatable, and I'm not sure about it).

My driver said he felt good better/safer with the notes than without. (Like a lot of others the vomiting set in and I could not call much, it was safer to use the route book because I could not guarentee uninterupted calling.)

7. It will place a lot more onus on codrivers, in an environment where good codriving isn't always readily available.

Again, when or where is the codriver supposed to learn?
Also I really screwed up with the work load I did not fully understand, including how to tell time.I cost my team 6 freakin' min. I will never do it again. I LEARNED and it will never happen again. Was I supposed to wait until my driver is a seed 6 or higher and make that "beginner mistake when he maybe has a sponsorship to answer to?

Lastly Adrian stated he felt # 6 might hold some water, I might sound like a suckup but maybe that had something to do with his abilities.

Just my .02, but I felt safer when I was also allowed to compete as a co-driver and not just an intersection announcing lump of ballast

Bernie
 

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>>
>>Notes make a lot of since when you have out of town drivers
>>trying to win something, it levels the field. But that is
>>not club rally club rally is a area to develoup driving
>>skills and team skills.
>>
>>Derek
>
>And notes have nothing to do with developing driving skills
>and team skills? I will have to respectfully disagree.
>
>Gary

The synthesis of road reading info with the notes makes you faster than either of the two alone. Road Reading is much more important of a skill and it is the foundation upon which notes can really be effictive.

That said, I am really bad at multi tasking and notes still make me feel stupid. They don't feel good to me. Maybe I need more practice.

Does anyone else have a hunch that there are a bunch of notes posers out there (I'm one) who aren't using them to their fullest capacity? Look how slow we all are. I look at my in car and stuff and just see a ton of improvement that can be made.

I love Headwaters with no notes.
 

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I agree with the idea of allowing notes in clubrally for people starting at a specific seed...6 or 7
Basically available to anyone who is not a beginner.

I am a co-driver and ran with them for the first time at Tall Pines, which was my 6th event. I loved the notes, for the first time (as someone else mentioned) i was more useful than a "junction annoncing ballast"

I can't stay focused when I'm using tulips, there's too much down time inbetween calls, then i get caught watching the scenery and then I end up late on a call.

But that also depends on whose tulips you are using, the tulips from Baie de Chaleurs were fairly close to notes they were so close together, the tulips from maine...well ya.. we all know about that.
"my next instruction is in 4 and a half miles..."

We all have to learn sometime, and maybe they should do a notes course sort of like the rookie course they do at club rallies..a little quicki class to give you a clue, I went to the co-driving school at Team O'Neil's this past summer and learned alot...otherwise I would have been lost at TP.

for us "ballasts" it's nice to be able to do more to help our drivers beside hand them a granola bar and a bottle of water after you finish a stage.
-sarah
 
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