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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For National teams unable to participate in the recce at StAgathe, I will make available copies of our (Nichols/Shindle)pacenotes by Friday morning at a reasonable cost. For those who've not competed at St Agathe, the routebook is sparce of instructions, the roads are full of 'gotchas' and blind crests and the air can be thick with dust. Notes can provide more safety and a better show for the spectators.

The usual disclaimers and waiver will need to be signed by teams recieving our notes.

Our notes will be available in English only and patterned after the Jemba created stagenotes (used at Rocky Mtn and SCCA ProRallies) in an attempt to create uniformity. Note: Not Jemba created, just similar.

Email '[email protected]' if interested.

See you there.
 

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Damn - you jumped us to the gun! We expect to offer our notes too, although in the British and WRC (except for McRae) style of "ascending numeric" for increasing severity.

Here's an interesting question I asked myself when someone first asked us if we'd sell: how detailed should you make them if you're going to sell them? I include things like the angle I want to approach the crest on, possible surface changes in shady areas for stages run in the morning or after rain, make a distinction between brows, lips, crests, and jumps, etc. When someone asked if I would sell our notes my first thought was "i wonder if they'll make any sense to anyone else?"

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Question - would either of you consider selling old notes BEFORE the start of recce?
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Keith,

No one should have the notes for St Agathe before the recce. It was ran as a blind rally last year.
Who are you riding with?

ACP,

With all that detail be sure to include the " !! finish control worker's cars":D
 

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Dave,
I don't have a ride solidified yet, but have been in touch with two drivers from the east, one you have co-driven for in the past.
Sorry about the confusion regarding old notes - I guess I wasn't paying attention to national events last year.

Keith
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
>have been in touch
>with two drivers from the east, one you have co-driven for
>in the past.

Is there someone I missed?
 

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Careful here. "Pace Notes" -- those that describe HOW to drive the course (e.g. angle over crest, turn-in point) are car/driver dependent. Such information should NOT be included in notes that are to be made available to others. Notes for distribution to others should be limited to an objective description of the road with a few driving instructions (e.g. "don't cut") as needed to succinctly help the driver avoid hazards.

I applaud those willing to provide their notes to others. But in my opinion it takes more than the one note-taking pass followed by one check pass to make notes of sufficient quality for distribution/use by others. I can interpret and deliver MY notes at speed; but to make them readily interpretable by many requires additional work, both in passes over the course and in clean-up.

Mark Williams
 

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I quite agree. When someone asked us if we'd supply them with our notes my first reaction was that my notes would probably make no sense or, worse, be somewhat deceptive to someone else with a different technique in a different car.

My codriver pointed out the "tradition" of selling notes - from Boyce/Woods at POR 1973 to Buffum in the 80s at Rim. I don't know for certain but I'm guessing that these guys did not try at objectivity, although they might have...

My feeling is that I don't have the time or the resources on the recce to make objective notes, only subjective ones. If someone is really keen to have them with that in mind, subject to all the necessary disclaimers, then fine. But I'm not really bent on selling them. With you lot, one round at the bar would cut seriously into profits anyway...

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.

PS Mark - very good comments. A.
 

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>My codriver pointed out the "tradition" of selling notes -
>from Boyce/Woods at POR 1973 to Buffum in the 80s at Rim. I
>don't know for certain but I'm guessing that these guys did
>not try at objectivity, although they might have...

Andrew:

Yes, we sold our notes at the 1973 POR and made more than enough money to pay for the recce (which was quite extensive - 85 stages, all different).

In retrospect, we were probably fortunate that no-one had any problems using our notes.

I agree with Mark's comments and would not sell my notes today.

In general, I do not like using someone else's notes. At the 1000 Lakes, we decided to use the organizer's notes and never felt comfortable with them. At the 1974 POR, we could not do the recce and we borrowed John Davenport's (works Lancia co-driver with Simo Lampinen) notes. In theory, my notes used his system and we were comfortable using them, but they contained too much personalized information that was just not applicable to us, our car, our speed, etc.

Doug Woods
 

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OK guys I will need some advice here.... as this will be the second ever rally for me ,will I be faster/safer with some "notes" purchased from another team?? My hope is that after the Baie I feel much more confident and would like to "push" a bit at Defi... would the notes help or hinder my progress .My only experience with notes is on Colin Macrae 2 ... limited at best!!! would ACP's notes make me safer at speed???
 

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>OK guys I will need some advice here.... as this will be the
>second ever rally for me ,will I be faster/safer with some
>"notes" purchased from another team?? My hope is that after
>the Baie I feel much more confident and would like to "push"
>a bit at Defi... would the notes help or hinder my progress
>.My only experience with notes is on Colin Macrae 2 ...
>limited at best!!! would ACP's notes make me safer at
>speed???


I would not want to be running anyone else's notes personally, especially if they're detailed ones like ACP's. Maybe that's because I prefer simpler instructions, and would not want my co-driver wondering how to decipher 100R ->3r 30'^4 or however an individual would want to write entrance angles.

If you don't feel confident making your own, i'd say get the Nichols ones (Based after Jemba, right), and then append them with your own instructions if you get a practice run. Just my $.02
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
>If you don't feel confident making your own, i'd say get the
>Nichols ones (Based after Jemba, right), and then append
>them with your own instructions if you get a practice run.

I will be helping prepare the stagenotes with the real Jemba system for WildWest ProRally with Pete Lahm and Arne Johanson of PSport the week before St Agathe. I will try to duplicate Jemba notes from what I learned then, in addition to having used them in most SCCA ProRallies. Jon's idea of notes when we did recce at Charlevoix were pretty close to Jemba. I will not have the distances in the columns that Jemba offers and will only include distance references at landmarks identified underneath their respective instruction. Landmarks are identified by tulips or sign writing beside the distance reference. I provide for ample 'page turning time' and pagebreaks by including them after a longer distance increment and linebreaks with a distance or slow speed instruction. Numbered pages easily identifable. Highlighted cautions or differentated with different colored ink if a color photocopier is available. My St Agathe notes will be pacenotes with only 2 passes and not stagenotes where unlimited passes and fine tweaking is allowed.

As to making your rally safer. Depends on if you and your codriver can digest the information accordingly and timely. It takes a codriver a little practice in the timing and reading the notes with confidence. There are sections of St Agathe that are twisty and cresty (crest as an adjective)that are going to be real busy even for a stage/pace note experienced codriver.
Like I stated in original post, St Agathe's routebook is sparce of instructions, there are many blind crest followed by 'gotchas' and unless it rains, it has to be the dustiest rally in Canada making visibility difficult. In these aspects, knowing what is approaching will make the rally safer with notes relative to driving within your (driver and car)limits.

ACP, regarding your post below, Jemba notes include late apex and more often 'don't cut' and 'off camber' to a turn's servity.
Too bad we haven't had the opportunity to do a noted event together.
 

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Well, now, this is an interesting question and discussion. I do think we might be drawing too sharp a distinction between "objective" and "subjective" here.

I first learned to use notes by using ones prepared by excellent British note-makers. These were designed to be provided to everyone at the event, but they had a not-inconsiderable amount of "subjectivity" in "keep in" and "late apex" and "crest L->R". Also corners of the same radius were called a degree or so sharper when they were at the end of a fast section etc. In other words, they were really good notes. They taught me what really good notes looked like.

Now, the way that my notes are more advanced now than the old provided ones were is like this: say there's a slight crest with a little ridge or bump (like a root growing under the road) right at the apex of a fairly tight corner. At 30kmh that little ridge is going to upset the suspension. Say also that it's more profound on the inside of the corner that on the outside (like the tree is on the inside). That's going to cause me to want to give it a little room as I apex, and also to cross it on a little sharper angle so that after the upset the car digs in a little more tightly. If the exit is narrow or dangerous on the outside, I would add "late apex" to this corner, but if it is clear or opens I would add "stay out". When I go through that corner on the rally, that note will give me a little margin of safety and I probably won't realize why I included the note until we're through it, but it may save my bacon.

Now that's definitely subjective. "Late apex" or "stay out" is the way I want to go around the corner. Is it too obscure or "subjective" to be of benefit to someone else? I don't know. Maybe. You judge.

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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well I am sure as hell not as fast as ACP but I would like to think that if it can make him happy at speed why would it not benefit me at amy speed also unless his notes are very cryptic and only his co-driver could decypher I would think that they "sound" like the same type of info that I would require to go faster and safer... having said that I have still never driven with "any" type of pacenote so the learning curve will be steep.At any rate my quest for advice is simply to keep my car on the road and try to be somewhat competitive so as a complete noobie I will continue to ask questions and try not to be a pain in the ass to everybody :7

steve
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Steve,

Being your 2nd event, are you able to enter the National rally at St Agathe? Only teams entered in the National event will be allowed to(without risk of disqualification)use notes.
Regional teams are limited to using the routebook.
 

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>
> ACP, regarding your post below, Jemba notes include late
>apex and more often 'don't cut' and 'off camber' to a turn's
>servity.
> Too bad we haven't had the opportunity to do a noted event
>together.

Yeah - really what I'm saying is that I'm likely to use "late apex" as a strategy on certain corners in addition to other corners where it is a descritor of the radius and curve. With Jemba, I've only seen it used in the second situation ie. not as a strategy. But the bottom line is that I think good "subjective" notes can be useful to another team.

I noticed on the Baie broadcast that by the fourth pass over the jumps at Camp Brule, Pat and I had already developed different modifications to the route book for our own purposes. The first jump, an icky off-camber right over brow, Pat had as a "medium right over jump" and I had a "hard right over brow". Then on the final large spectator jump we started out with "big jump left to right" but by the end of the event modified it to "big jump left to center on finish". I can't remember what Pat had.

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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yes I was in the national at Baie ... as a long time off road racer the region stewart backed my application to run national at my first event(some rule somewhere ??) and as I understand things... I can now qualify for my "national licence" so... barring any unforseen changes ... yes I will be national at Defi and hoping for a top ten finish this time around ( got to 12th in Baie befor the flat in the dust of the 11th place car on the 2nd to last stage and finished 16 overall)so the pacenote thing is kinda important 'cause I would like to push a little this time around to see what I can do ?? }>
steve
 
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