Joined
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343 Posts
Wow,
Tall Pines has 67 entries (19 front the U.S) so far and South Carolina Sandblast has 36 entries.
Brian
Tall Pines has 67 entries (19 front the U.S) so far and South Carolina Sandblast has 36 entries.
Brian
Non-SCCA rallies with lots of cars.
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Joined
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121 Posts
Ramada Express has 32!
There are some gaps in the starting order, but definetly over 50 entries. Snow on the ground too, should be fun!
http://www.tallpinesrally.com/2003/Competitors/EntryList.asp
Andrew Harvey
http://www.tallpinesrally.com/2003/Competitors/EntryList.asp
Andrew Harvey
Joined
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3,652 Posts
Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
Brian,
The trend is nothing new. Rallye St. Agathe (Canadian National/ProRally) drew more competitors than did WildWest held the same weekend and some of the reasons why were discussed here.
http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=1781&forum=DCForumID2
Similarly, to compare LSPR, the last SCCA ProRally on the calander, with Tall Pines, the last CARS National rally on the calander; you'll see LSPR had 33 entries, TallPines already has 41 and growing.
You'd think the decreasing number of SCCA ProRally entrants is hurting the ProRally organizers. Its a number game between increasing entry fees and decreasing entries. Regardless of entry fees, less entries cause less operating money to host the rally meaning perhaps less the rally can offer (freebies, awards, promotion, worker perks,..). Hope Rally America will stick around to offer funding to the ProRallies.
What I don't understand is why SCCA doesn't help the organizers by lifting the membership required to participate in SCCA rallies. As Adrian Wintle points out http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/1946.html#28 is a reason Canadians don't enter SCCA events.
For years now I've been told that SCCA Risk Management and it's insurance requires participants to be SCCA members. However, recently I asked Pete Lyons of SCCA Risk management, where in the insurance or risk management documents is this required. (See, I go thru channels without just complaining on SS). His reply was that membership is not a requirement by risk management or the insurance however the insurance may be cheaper if membership is required. He did not seem certain in that aspect though.
True, SCCA would lose membership funds if they did not require licensed CARS competitors to be SCCA members. However, SCCA would gain additional sanction and insurance funds with the increased entries from north of the border, the organizers would profit (well, perhaps not be paying out of their pocket to hold a rally) with increased entries, and the overall competition would be in the US would be much better with Canadian entries.
Just a couple years ago when I was running in SCCA ProRallies with a Canadian driver, John McArther would not recognize his CARS seed as equilalant to the SCCA driver's seed. John's reasoning was that the competition in Canada was less than it was in the US. Now, a scant 2 years later, its the Canadian entry list that outnumber the SCCA's.
Great class competition too.
Check out all the US and Canadian Production class entries at Tall Pines. 13 Production class cars. More than all SCCA ProRallies this season added together.
And in Gr2, Scott Fuller, Andrew and Chris Havas coming to Canada to run against Jon Nichols and Gord Olsen.
Currently, only Tom McGeer in Open, the Pilons and Scott Trinder in PGT or Peter Thomson in GroupN come to the US to compete that make interesting US events to compare to the Canadian competion.
My recommendation is for SCCA to lift the requirement for CARS licensed competitors to be SCCA members for the benefits mentioned above.
Brian,
The trend is nothing new. Rallye St. Agathe (Canadian National/ProRally) drew more competitors than did WildWest held the same weekend and some of the reasons why were discussed here.
http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=1781&forum=DCForumID2
Similarly, to compare LSPR, the last SCCA ProRally on the calander, with Tall Pines, the last CARS National rally on the calander; you'll see LSPR had 33 entries, TallPines already has 41 and growing.
You'd think the decreasing number of SCCA ProRally entrants is hurting the ProRally organizers. Its a number game between increasing entry fees and decreasing entries. Regardless of entry fees, less entries cause less operating money to host the rally meaning perhaps less the rally can offer (freebies, awards, promotion, worker perks,..). Hope Rally America will stick around to offer funding to the ProRallies.
What I don't understand is why SCCA doesn't help the organizers by lifting the membership required to participate in SCCA rallies. As Adrian Wintle points out http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/1946.html#28 is a reason Canadians don't enter SCCA events.
For years now I've been told that SCCA Risk Management and it's insurance requires participants to be SCCA members. However, recently I asked Pete Lyons of SCCA Risk management, where in the insurance or risk management documents is this required. (See, I go thru channels without just complaining on SS). His reply was that membership is not a requirement by risk management or the insurance however the insurance may be cheaper if membership is required. He did not seem certain in that aspect though.
True, SCCA would lose membership funds if they did not require licensed CARS competitors to be SCCA members. However, SCCA would gain additional sanction and insurance funds with the increased entries from north of the border, the organizers would profit (well, perhaps not be paying out of their pocket to hold a rally) with increased entries, and the overall competition would be in the US would be much better with Canadian entries.
Just a couple years ago when I was running in SCCA ProRallies with a Canadian driver, John McArther would not recognize his CARS seed as equilalant to the SCCA driver's seed. John's reasoning was that the competition in Canada was less than it was in the US. Now, a scant 2 years later, its the Canadian entry list that outnumber the SCCA's.
Great class competition too.
Check out all the US and Canadian Production class entries at Tall Pines. 13 Production class cars. More than all SCCA ProRallies this season added together.
And in Gr2, Scott Fuller, Andrew and Chris Havas coming to Canada to run against Jon Nichols and Gord Olsen.
Currently, only Tom McGeer in Open, the Pilons and Scott Trinder in PGT or Peter Thomson in GroupN come to the US to compete that make interesting US events to compare to the Canadian competion.
My recommendation is for SCCA to lift the requirement for CARS licensed competitors to be SCCA members for the benefits mentioned above.
Joined
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2,917 Posts
RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
> Just a couple years ago when I was running in SCCA
>ProRallies with a Canadian driver, John McArther would not
>recognize his CARS seed as equilalant to the SCCA driver's
>seed. John's reasoning was that the competition in Canada
>was less than it was in the US. Now, a scant 2 years later,
>its the Canadian entry list that outnumber the SCCA's.
McArthur made the same claim about a year ago.
alan
> Just a couple years ago when I was running in SCCA
>ProRallies with a Canadian driver, John McArther would not
>recognize his CARS seed as equilalant to the SCCA driver's
>seed. John's reasoning was that the competition in Canada
>was less than it was in the US. Now, a scant 2 years later,
>its the Canadian entry list that outnumber the SCCA's.
McArthur made the same claim about a year ago.
alan
Joined
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3,652 Posts
RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
>McArthur made the same claim about a year ago.
Not only that, but several top Canadian teams have been forced to run in SCCA ProRallies with ClubRally ID packages. Degrading to some. Why? They are not entering the ClubRally. Just make it more confusing to the spectators why-don't-you?
Add to that the SCCA ID packages cost $50USD. Canadian ID packages are free for the first, $15CDN or thereabouts afterward. BIG descrepency. Why such a difference? This cost adds up if competing regularly on both sides of the border.
>McArthur made the same claim about a year ago.
Not only that, but several top Canadian teams have been forced to run in SCCA ProRallies with ClubRally ID packages. Degrading to some. Why? They are not entering the ClubRally. Just make it more confusing to the spectators why-don't-you?
Add to that the SCCA ID packages cost $50USD. Canadian ID packages are free for the first, $15CDN or thereabouts afterward. BIG descrepency. Why such a difference? This cost adds up if competing regularly on both sides of the border.
Joined
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343 Posts
RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
Do not get me started on not recognizing Canadian seeds in the U.S....especially when you leave the U.S rally scene and return as a CARS seed 1.....only to be "given" an SCCA seed of 3.....
Brian
Do not get me started on not recognizing Canadian seeds in the U.S....especially when you leave the U.S rally scene and return as a CARS seed 1.....only to be "given" an SCCA seed of 3.....
Brian
Joined
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2,917 Posts
RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
Yeah, but there are seed issues on both sides of the border. Look at Iorio/Ho's start position at Tall Pines. They have a 0.86 speed factor.
Ross and I (in a 2002 WRX) got started behind a Dinosaur class Corolla at Pacific Forest. We were running in the top 5 there until the car broke.
alan
Yeah, but there are seed issues on both sides of the border. Look at Iorio/Ho's start position at Tall Pines. They have a 0.86 speed factor.
Ross and I (in a 2002 WRX) got started behind a Dinosaur class Corolla at Pacific Forest. We were running in the top 5 there until the car broke.
alan
Joined
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3,652 Posts
RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
>Yeah, but there are seed issues on both sides of the border.
> Look at Iorio/Ho's start position at Tall Pines. They have
>a 0.86 speed factor.
Do you think he listed himself as seed6 for a SCCA seed 6 not realizing that was the total novice seed in Canada?
>Yeah, but there are seed issues on both sides of the border.
> Look at Iorio/Ho's start position at Tall Pines. They have
>a 0.86 speed factor.
Do you think he listed himself as seed6 for a SCCA seed 6 not realizing that was the total novice seed in Canada?
Joined
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2,917 Posts
RE: Whining about seed
>>Yeah, but there are seed issues on both sides of the border.
>> Look at Iorio/Ho's start position at Tall Pines. They have
>>a 0.86 speed factor.
>
>Do you think he listed himself as seed6 for a SCCA seed 6
>not realizing that was the total novice seed in Canada?
Since he is US licensed competitor, wouldn't they map his US seed 6 to Canadian seed 5B (or however that works)? Besides for the Canadian Nationals, they go off of the official US seed list and he has been US seed 5 since after Oregon Trail.
I have been in many discussions with Terry Epp about seed.
My biggest complaint about running in Canadian is their seed system and how it is blindly used to determine start order in the nationals that I have run in.
alan
>>Yeah, but there are seed issues on both sides of the border.
>> Look at Iorio/Ho's start position at Tall Pines. They have
>>a 0.86 speed factor.
>
>Do you think he listed himself as seed6 for a SCCA seed 6
>not realizing that was the total novice seed in Canada?
Since he is US licensed competitor, wouldn't they map his US seed 6 to Canadian seed 5B (or however that works)? Besides for the Canadian Nationals, they go off of the official US seed list and he has been US seed 5 since after Oregon Trail.
I have been in many discussions with Terry Epp about seed.
My biggest complaint about running in Canadian is their seed system and how it is blindly used to determine start order in the nationals that I have run in.
alan
G
Guest
·RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
Can the ID packages be applied to a magnetic backing, making them reusable and removable?
truth be told, I assumed they were magnetic signs until I had to deal with sticking one on this summer.
I have this great spiel about how group activities are cheaper in Canada due to differing legal climate and nationlization of certain requirements.
Conversely, in the US, we pay more modest taxes to subsidize the production of milk, meat, and oil, while leaving our "free" income to pay for things like car insurance, health insurance, and lawyers when we get the bejesus sued out of us.
So our gas prices look cheap to Canadians, and their insurance looks cheap to us.
The issues of cost get lost, to me, somewhat, in understanding how the two governments acquire and use public funds for the benefits of their citizens. Obviously as a tourist, we are relieved of this burden, and we see people flow through the border both ways in an attempt to gain the advantages they are after.
I agree its a bit stupid to ask the Canadians to buy a license. Any other respectable group reciprocates for like members from other countries.
After talking to Pete Lyons, who is the next go to person on the list, Dave?
With the season wound down, this could be a nice, easy little thing to get fixed up for next year. I can't see any possible downside to making it easier to get more competitors to come to the states. The Canadian guys have already made it easy to go north. This is a move the SCCA can make to put more money into the organizers coffers.
It might not be unreasonable to say "two events in the US for free- after that pay XXX amount" ?
Can the ID packages be applied to a magnetic backing, making them reusable and removable?
truth be told, I assumed they were magnetic signs until I had to deal with sticking one on this summer.
I have this great spiel about how group activities are cheaper in Canada due to differing legal climate and nationlization of certain requirements.
Conversely, in the US, we pay more modest taxes to subsidize the production of milk, meat, and oil, while leaving our "free" income to pay for things like car insurance, health insurance, and lawyers when we get the bejesus sued out of us.
So our gas prices look cheap to Canadians, and their insurance looks cheap to us.
The issues of cost get lost, to me, somewhat, in understanding how the two governments acquire and use public funds for the benefits of their citizens. Obviously as a tourist, we are relieved of this burden, and we see people flow through the border both ways in an attempt to gain the advantages they are after.
I agree its a bit stupid to ask the Canadians to buy a license. Any other respectable group reciprocates for like members from other countries.
After talking to Pete Lyons, who is the next go to person on the list, Dave?
With the season wound down, this could be a nice, easy little thing to get fixed up for next year. I can't see any possible downside to making it easier to get more competitors to come to the states. The Canadian guys have already made it easy to go north. This is a move the SCCA can make to put more money into the organizers coffers.
It might not be unreasonable to say "two events in the US for free- after that pay XXX amount" ?
RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
Interesting topic. . . . All I can say as a low budget, Justy driver is that it cost me more in entry fees, SCCA membership, hotels, meals etc. to do one day at DooWops 2 years ago than it cost me to do Bighorn or Rocky in Alberta last year. Consider that both Canadian events were a 12 hour tow and DooWops are just 4 hours down the I5 from Vancouver.
I'm looking at a budget for next year and considering perhaps Wild West and Oregon Trail. but nearly fell off my chair when comparing the national entry fees to canadian events.
Martin
Cheapskate rally driver.
Interesting topic. . . . All I can say as a low budget, Justy driver is that it cost me more in entry fees, SCCA membership, hotels, meals etc. to do one day at DooWops 2 years ago than it cost me to do Bighorn or Rocky in Alberta last year. Consider that both Canadian events were a 12 hour tow and DooWops are just 4 hours down the I5 from Vancouver.
I'm looking at a budget for next year and considering perhaps Wild West and Oregon Trail. but nearly fell off my chair when comparing the national entry fees to canadian events.
Martin
Cheapskate rally driver.
G
Guest
·RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
Are you Canadian Martin? Sounds like it, but I don't want to make assumptions
If you are, it would be useful to hear about things that are considered to be cheaper in the US than Canada, and vice versa.
Are you Canadian Martin? Sounds like it, but I don't want to make assumptions
If you are, it would be useful to hear about things that are considered to be cheaper in the US than Canada, and vice versa.
Joined
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3,652 Posts
RE: Whining about seed
>My biggest complaint about running in Canadian is their seed
>system and how it is blindly used to determine start order
>in the nationals that I have run in.
Start order is determined by event organizers. You can always provide an inquiry if you think a particular start order creates a safety/passing hazard. Most events have reseeds early in the event prior to ay long stages.
>Ross and I (in a 2002 WRX) got started behind a Dinosaur class >Corolla at Pacific Forest. We were running in the top 5 there until >the car broke.
Ah, but you DNFed, again.
Seed is determined by rewarding points by finishing positions. Although Ross may be faster than his seed reflects, he hadn't had much luck with finishing events. Having fast drivers who DNF placed in front of slow drivers who finish also creates a safety hazard as more cars may have to pass your disabled car on a stage.
>My biggest complaint about running in Canadian is their seed
>system and how it is blindly used to determine start order
>in the nationals that I have run in.
Start order is determined by event organizers. You can always provide an inquiry if you think a particular start order creates a safety/passing hazard. Most events have reseeds early in the event prior to ay long stages.
>Ross and I (in a 2002 WRX) got started behind a Dinosaur class >Corolla at Pacific Forest. We were running in the top 5 there until >the car broke.
Ah, but you DNFed, again.
Seed is determined by rewarding points by finishing positions. Although Ross may be faster than his seed reflects, he hadn't had much luck with finishing events. Having fast drivers who DNF placed in front of slow drivers who finish also creates a safety hazard as more cars may have to pass your disabled car on a stage.
Joined
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3,652 Posts
RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
>Can the ID packages be applied to a magnetic backing, making
>them reusable and removable?
Magnetic backers won't always stick for the length of a rally considering Gforces and such. We've made magnetic backers for our RallyX program and some stick for the duration of the rallyX, others don't.
>So our gas prices look cheap to Canadians, and their
>insurance looks cheap to us.
US teams can always take their cheap US gas with them across the border. maybe you won't want to take enough for a week at Charlevoix including recce, but otherwise, they can.
>After talking to Pete Lyons, who is the next go to person on
>the list, Dave?
Pete Lyons said it is up to the PerformanceRally department to change membership requirements. Just another BIG problem with SCCA. Too many SCCA officials to deal with and their interest may not always be rally.
Christian, JB, George, can you bring this up for discussion at PRB level?
Really, its in the interest of the organizers of events near the Canadian border. They should be pushing for the change in membership requirements.
>it would be useful to hear about things that are considered to be >cheaper in the US than Canada, and vice versa
Cheaper in Canada:
Rally licenses
Memberships
# backers
Entry fees
US residents get GST taxes back for hotels
Cheaper in US:
Gas
Cannot compare at this point:
Stagenotes but generally cheaper in Canada
>Can the ID packages be applied to a magnetic backing, making
>them reusable and removable?
Magnetic backers won't always stick for the length of a rally considering Gforces and such. We've made magnetic backers for our RallyX program and some stick for the duration of the rallyX, others don't.
>So our gas prices look cheap to Canadians, and their
>insurance looks cheap to us.
US teams can always take their cheap US gas with them across the border. maybe you won't want to take enough for a week at Charlevoix including recce, but otherwise, they can.
>After talking to Pete Lyons, who is the next go to person on
>the list, Dave?
Pete Lyons said it is up to the PerformanceRally department to change membership requirements. Just another BIG problem with SCCA. Too many SCCA officials to deal with and their interest may not always be rally.
Christian, JB, George, can you bring this up for discussion at PRB level?
Really, its in the interest of the organizers of events near the Canadian border. They should be pushing for the change in membership requirements.
>it would be useful to hear about things that are considered to be >cheaper in the US than Canada, and vice versa
Cheaper in Canada:
Rally licenses
Memberships
# backers
Entry fees
US residents get GST taxes back for hotels
Cheaper in US:
Gas
Cannot compare at this point:
Stagenotes but generally cheaper in Canada
RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
Canadian? How did you guess
Cheaper in the States
Gas, but not all that much.
In Canada
Hotels
Meals
Entry fees, big difference. This years Wild West, $900US for national as against PFR at $340US. At that rate I can enter almost 3 Canadian nationals for the price of 1 US event. That alone for a low budget team is a HUGE difference. It might be argued that the club rally entry fee was cheaper but I don't see why the smaller budget teams can't have national class championship aspirations as they frequently do in Canada.
No suprise memberships in SCCA etc
Hotels/meals seem to cost about the same in dollars, it's just that the exchange rate loses me 35% or so. Trouble is, it all adds up!
Martin
Canadian? How did you guess
Cheaper in the States
Gas, but not all that much.
In Canada
Hotels
Meals
Entry fees, big difference. This years Wild West, $900US for national as against PFR at $340US. At that rate I can enter almost 3 Canadian nationals for the price of 1 US event. That alone for a low budget team is a HUGE difference. It might be argued that the club rally entry fee was cheaper but I don't see why the smaller budget teams can't have national class championship aspirations as they frequently do in Canada.
No suprise memberships in SCCA etc
Hotels/meals seem to cost about the same in dollars, it's just that the exchange rate loses me 35% or so. Trouble is, it all adds up!
Martin
Joined
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3,652 Posts
RE: Attracting More Canadian Entrants
>One additional perk to allow Canadians to compete in US
>events would be to allow Canadian entrants to pay in
>Canadian dollars at par. This would help to offset some of
>their additional expense.
Maine Forest Rally does. Organizer's decision.
>One additional perk to allow Canadians to compete in US
>events would be to allow Canadian entrants to pay in
>Canadian dollars at par. This would help to offset some of
>their additional expense.
Maine Forest Rally does. Organizer's decision.
Joined
·
610 Posts
RE: Reason to lift SCCA membership requirements
>I agree its a bit stupid to ask the Canadians to buy a
>license. Any other respectable group reciprocates for like
>members from other countries.
While I don't really see why the SCCA doesn't extend the same courtesy to Canadian competitors that CARS gives American teams, I for one wouldn't compete in the US without SCCA membership.
The travel health insurance policies that I've seen have coverage exclusions for motorsport; SCCA membership includes insurance coverage during events.
Something to consider for Canadians competing in the US.
Jeff
>I agree its a bit stupid to ask the Canadians to buy a
>license. Any other respectable group reciprocates for like
>members from other countries.
While I don't really see why the SCCA doesn't extend the same courtesy to Canadian competitors that CARS gives American teams, I for one wouldn't compete in the US without SCCA membership.
The travel health insurance policies that I've seen have coverage exclusions for motorsport; SCCA membership includes insurance coverage during events.
Something to consider for Canadians competing in the US.
Jeff
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