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I was shocked to read in another post that some folks who are rallying do not have proper health insurance.

This should be an ABSOLUTE MUST not only from a point of sanity but also if the Sanctioning body pays after a competitor's insurance pays it would also serve to lower costs.
 

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don't cut
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I wonder if my health insurance would cover a racing accident? I'm kinda afraid to ask. Probably some exclusion in there somewhere, darn HMO's. Maybe if Kerry get's elected we'll get universal health care and I won't have to worry about it.

Between rally and the airplanes I don't even bother with life insurance.

Dennis Martin
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>This should be an ABSOLUTE MUST not only from a point of
>sanity but also if the Sanctioning body pays after a
>competitor's insurance pays it would also serve to lower
>costs.

Be careful with that last suggestion......or we might have to start bringing in proof of health insurance and a copy of the policy to show that racing is not excluded......

Mark B.
 

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My life insurance, Primerica, actually had a form for me to fill out for motorsports. Number of events per year, how far do I drive to each event, what conditions do the events take place in, how many miles per event, etc. I think it tacked an extra $150 or so per year onto my plan.

Edit: Just re-checked. It was my life insurance that had the motorsports forms to fill out. I know I also gave something to HR at work for motorsports and health insurance; I'll double-check to see what the form was.

http://www.trunkmonkeyracing.com/pics/lil.gif http://www.trunkmonkeyracing.com/
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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RE: insurance

I've done it so I know how SCCA insurance worked.
It covered over whatever you have, so while I was all loopy from pain meds, SCCA insurance made sure my primary company paid everything they had to and also checked the hospital bills to be sure they were fair. All stuff I couldn't do in my condition and probably still couldn't. Only another insurance company knows all the ways they try to cheat you so having SCCA's insurance coverage was a great deal.
rz
 

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>Between rally and the airplanes I don't even bother with
>life insurance.

If you get life insurance through a group policy at work, they typically must insure you no questions asked under the group policy. I specifically asked about racing exclusions when I signed up for my work life insurance. The insurance company assured me that there are no exclusions for car or motorcycle racing, scuba diving, sky diving.

I upped my death benefit from the basic $100,000 to $500,000 for an additional $5-10 a month or something like that.

Rallyists should also look at long term disability insurance. If I am debilitated in an accident and unable to work, long term disability will continue to pay me 66% of my salary until retirement age. I think this cost around $10 additional per month as well.

Happy thoughts,
- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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>Be careful with that last suggestion......or we might have
>to start bringing in proof of health insurance and a copy of
>the policy to show that racing is not excluded......
>
>Mark B.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me...
 

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Uhm, a hypothetical sort of question here. What if the insurance companies tell us that we can lower our premiums by not supplying participant accident coverage, specifically for drivers and co-drivers? In other words, you strap into the car and have an accident, your health insurance is all you have. No additional coverage from Rally America.

I have not posed this question to any insurance companies. I'm not suggesting it's anything other than sheer stupidity. I'm just looking for your opinions here.

Problems I see with the concept are serious. If someone didn't have health insurance, or didn't have sufficient insurance, and they needed a life flight, who among us would just stand there and watch them die? Heck I'd offer to pay for the flight out of my own pocket instead of doing nothing.

Is it even in our wildest dreams a consideration to require all competitors to carry a specific level of health insurance before we let them compete so we can reduce the liability to the event and the sport?

Obviously workers, spectators and so on with waivers would all be covered as they should be able to reasonably assume they won't be injured by a rally car. But each time we belt up in a car, don't we all understand that we might end up with at least a few stitches or a fractured wrist or something?

Even if we did something like that, would it ultimately reduce the liability of the event or Rally America? Specifically would it prevent a competitor or their family from suing someone?

Just curious what you all think.

Cheers,
-Doug
 

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Just be aware that quite a few health insurance policies specifically state that they will not cover you in the event of a racing accident, etc. Also, any medical coverage under your car's insurance isn't going to cover a competition injury.

I know Blue Cross does not have a motorsports exclusion, but many HMOs do.
 

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RE: da$%#d heirs!

I wouldn't enter an event without supplemental health insurance. I'd be willing to pay seperately for event insurance and personal medical insurance, if the personal medical group policy is organized by the event.

Lower top speeds, not average speeds, are the key. Crashing will continue to happen, no matter what car, no matter if it is the driver or co-drivers, first, tenth, or hundredth rally.
 

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>I was shocked to read in another post that some folks who
>are rallying do not have proper health insurance.
>
>This should be an ABSOLUTE MUST not only from a point of
>sanity but also if the Sanctioning body pays after a
>competitor's insurance pays it would also serve to lower
>costs.

When we entered Pikes Peak last year, we were required to show proof of health insurance coverage. Makes sense to me. We have to show proof of auto liability coverage, how about health coverage for the drivers?

Bill Montgomery
 

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Well Jake et al , nearly 20 years ago the only thing I thought of was how could I become 125cc Road Racing World Champion - I worked at a small print shop with no insurance , there was no way I was going to let a small detail such as health insurance stop me from racing.Ok so now I know better , there are currently a lot of young potential drivers out there working at places with no insurance. I agree you need to have health and disability but will people being covered or not have an effect on event insurance???

Tom
 

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>Just curious what you all think.
>
>Cheers,
>-Doug


You've asked two questions...

1 - Health Coverage

2 - Liability Coverage.

Answer number 1 - Manage it the same way that Health Insurance Companies do... define it as either Health Maintenance or Catasrophic.

In most cases, the stitches or fractured wrists you mentioned might be excluded from the policy to limit costs while the more serious, Life Flight kinds of injuries ARE covered by a Catastophic policy.

As a former seller of Health and Life Insurance and a current Self Insured Business owner, those were exactly the kinds of options I had and the Catastophic Coverage was MUCH more reasnably priced.

Answer number 2 - Health Insurance coverage does NOT limit liability at all. It's the "WHY did this or that happen" Liability that needs to be dealt with and that is not managed by Insurance, just price adjusted for by Insurance.

We need to (I hate to even say it) Legislate the Liabiliy out of the equasion by proving to them the only WHY is Driver error and that Driver's have taken, SOLEY, that liability upon themselves.

I mean, ask yourselves.... What IS Liability?

What is RA going to get Sued for?

Stitches? Broken Bones? No way...

Say it this way... "Rally America is RESPONSIBLE for that Injury because..."

They will get sued for the REASONS those Stitches happened or the REASON the Bone got broken.

And what ARE (or have been) those Reasons?

Were reasonable steps were taken to prevent those injuries?

Is sticking a newbie in a G2 car a "reasonable step" in preventing that Injury? Is it ONLY if that Driver has met some standard to be allowed to run in the FIRST place. A standard that is equal to everyone and agreed upon by the Insurance Company and a solid legal team and finally, agreed to by the Competitors themselves.

Putting the entire contingent of Rally Drivers into a Spec Volvo, low horsepower, safest vehicle in the world, specially built for the Safest RALLY in the world, would NOT limit liability.

Because the threat of liabiliy comes from what you SHOULD have done rather than what WAS done.

We have some luxury in knowing what loop holes were exploited in the past and closing them is a great place to start.

Now, before you get upset at me, I don't meant them to be closed in a "let's get away with it" sort of way but in a "let's recognize the problem and fix it" sort of way to eliminate it from recurring.

Just my humble, .14 cents worth of opinion.

Scott - I'll back off now, I've spent my .02 cents worth - Kovalik
 

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>Just be aware that quite a few health insurance policies
>specifically state that they will not cover you in the event
>of a racing accident, etc.


You bring up a very good point that I have not got an answer on yet...

What if you DO have Insurance that does NOT cover you (motorsports exemption)?

The Policy the SCCA had says that it fully covers only those that do NOT have "any" Insurance coverage OR that it will pay as a supliment to those that do.

What of these folks that DO have coverage and AREN'T covered. It would seem they were exluded anyway.

Any answers here?

Scott - things that make you go Hmmmm... - Kovalik
 

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We are required to insure our cars.

Requiring us to insure ourselves is not unreasonable.
-- which option is less expensive in the long run?
-- a pool of insurance tends to be less expensive but that may not be the case.

The biggest problem I see with insurance by individual is someone refusing medical treatment because they already have two claims and they know a third would make them uninsurable. (Like a homeowners policy, three strikes and you are out).


I think this is worth investigating, although I would be careful with who I investigated it (not a current bidder for insurance but maybe someone who has already rejected the policy might be interested in exploring this avenue.)


I think this could substantially lower entry fees, and appropriately transfer risk.


Another related thought:
Over the long term of rally we have seen mostly "walk-away" accidents. Up until recently (last 5 years) we mostly walked away, and rarely had severe accidents requiring medical attention, of the few times medical attention was required, it was more often worst case. More recently we have had more need for medical attention, more often without being worst case. Summary: There is a potential that being unable to get insurance or loosing insurance could weed out a few of the bad apples, unfortunately I don't think we have a large enough pool of drivers for these trends to pan out.
 

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An uninsured driver had a severe accident at Waterford (race course near Detroit) several years ago.

The event (non-SCCA) did not have insurance coverage for the participant, Waterford did not have insurance coverage for the participant.

Donations were requested to cover medical bills, I doubt the family will ever recover financially.


Unless there is no one in the world responsible for you or to you, I don't think it is smart or fair for an organizer of any dangerous event to let you participate without the proper insurance.

Accidents can happen anywhere, but we owe it to each other to mitigate risk, or have proper coverage.
 

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I suspect (meaning I think but have no idea) it works the same way health and car insurance work.

In the case of the SCCA, your personal health insurance is primary and they pay only when your personal benefits run out. If you are in a car accident, your car insurance pays medical benefits first and then your health insurance covers when that runs out.

So technically in a rally accident the order of priority would be car insurance, then personal health insurance, and finally SCCA insurance.
 

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>Uhm, a hypothetical sort of question here. What if the
>insurance companies tell us that we can lower our premiums
>by not supplying participant accident coverage, specifically
>for drivers and co-drivers? In other words, you strap into
>the car and have an accident, your health insurance is all
>you have. No additional coverage from Rally America.

In my personal conscience view, I would have a hard time as an organizer or sanctioning body in putting on events where some form of catastrophic accident coverage insurance is not provided. But this is alwasy a 2 part question, the 2nd part being: how much does this cost the to the events? Folks have times in their lives where insurance gets dropped (changing jobs, losing jobs, starting a business, etc.), so continuous health insurance coverage is not guaranteed. I also cannot in good conscience separate an injury to a driver/co-driver from a spectator or worker; they are all good people. I would hope that some form of secondary health coverage is always provided.
>
>
>Is it even in our wildest dreams a consideration to require
>all competitors to carry a specific level of health
>insurance before we let them compete so we can reduce the
>liability to the event and the sport?

Having health insurance does not limit liability from lawsuits, and has been pointed out by others. Health insurance fixes the immediate injuries as best they can be fixed. Long term diability is not covered by health insurance, nor is loss of income to a person/family. It seems like the liability exposure is close to being the same, but I am not an insurance expert by any means!
>
>Obviously workers, spectators and so on with waivers would
>all be covered as they should be able to reasonably assume
>they won't be injured by a rally car. But each time we belt
>up in a car, don't we all understand that we might end up
>with at least a few stitches or a fractured wrist or
>something?
>
Again, small injuries are not the issue that drives these insurance costs.

>Even if we did something like that, would it ultimately
>reduce the liability of the event or Rally America?
>Specifically would it prevent a competitor or their family
>from suing someone?

I can't see how, since the long term loss issues are not covered by health insurance.

Regards,
Mark B.
 
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