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1973 WRC POR
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2,421 Posts
RE: Start list

>Defi start order is posted.

Dave:

And it demonstrates just how poor our start order regulations are in Canada.

Matt Iorio starting in ninth place with Group 2 and Production cars ahead of him? And people thought the start order at Ojibwe was bad (it was).

The organizers can ask (could have asked) for a driver (such as Matt) to be moved up into a higher seed, with the Senior Steward's approval.

Doug Woods
 

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Faster Mabricator
Joined
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3,611 Posts
RE: Start list

>The organizers can ask (could have asked) for a driver (such
>as Matt) to be moved up into a higher seed, with the Senior
>Steward's approval.

I think its irrelevant in the case of Defi as there are only very, very short stages Saturday night before the reseed. No one is catching anyone else on these short stages.

As far as 2WD cars starting ahead of 4WD cars, so what?
Nichols continues to get podium positions driving his VW and now the car has even had some recent upgrades. Pehaps Frank belongs in the seed2 draw when he is driving the P2 car as most of the AWD and Gr2 cars in seed2 have comparable or better times and it'd be better racing/comparasions with Bacon.

Iorio will be moved up Saturday AM when the real really begins.

PS: Scratch my name off as Zimmer's codriver as I'm anxiously expecting a baby. Adrian will be with Randy.
 

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straight at T
Joined
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2,472 Posts
RE: Start list

>>The organizers can ask (could have asked) for a driver
>(such
>>as Matt) to be moved up into a higher seed, with the Senior
>>Steward's approval.

The competitor can ask the stewards to do it, too...

>I think its irrelevant in the case of Defi as there are only
>very, very short stages Saturday night before the reseed. No
>one is catching anyone else on these short stages.

Item 7 in the sups says that there will be no reseed on Friday night (and that Friday's stages will be run in reverse starting order).

>PS: Scratch my name off as Zimmer's codriver as I'm anxiously
>expecting a baby. Adrian will be with Randy.

Adrian
(emergency backup codriver)
 

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Registered
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1,641 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
RE: Start list

Doug, I've found the steward's at Canadian events(especially Eastern events) receptive to changing the start order when asked.

There have been other issues and Dave raises one of them.

Canadian events reseed often, and usually after meaningful stages which allow the field to shakeout. US events don't usually have as many, "Legs," and thus less re-seeds. I've experienced the effects of lack of reseeding at past events.

I've been to more than one event where there were 2 minute windows for all cars, which made start order nearly a moot point. Of course road condition is always an issue that can be debated.

I'm hoping we see some changes in the start order before SS1 starts.

Looking at the list, I'm not surprised that Jon is up where he is, but that Gord is so much further down.

Cheers! John
 

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1973 WRC POR
Joined
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2,421 Posts
RE: Start list

>I think its irrelevant in the case of Defi as there are only
>very, very short stages Saturday night before the reseed. No
>one is catching anyone else on these short stages.

Dave:

I believe the reseed is after the four short stages Friday night PLUS the first long (real long this year?) stage on Saturday morning.

So, the start order is extremely important, especially if we get a dry rally this year. Remember last year was very, very wet the day before and dust was not an issue. This year we have had a hot, dry summer so the roads could be very dusty.

Doug Woods
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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2,953 Posts
RE: Start list

Couple differences here against Minn.
1st, the order is posted well in advance of the rally allowing it to be looked over.
2nd, the stewards aren't idiots.
3rd, if dusty, there'll be 2 min. at least way up front.
I think, in seed, most of the calls are close to right.
Knowing what cars are being used, I'd move Frank down, Matt up a couple and Tim P. up a few.
Getting Gord and Jon and Frank and Bill closer to each other would help preserve their races.
rz
 

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Dirt surfer
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1,367 Posts
RE: Start list

Start order will get worked out.

Fri nite stages start in reverse order, fastest teams last. If there are issues with catching the car ahead of you on a 3-km stage, whoa! get out of the way. The draw isn't THAT bad...

Sat am, we go out in seeded draw order. The new Fortier turnaround stage is 9 km, so you;d have to be more than 6 sec/km faster to have catch-up issues there as well. After Fortier comes reseed before the 28 km biggies at Duhamel and Lac Gagnon. As someone said earlier, that's where the rally really begins.

Don't see what's to worry about. If dust is bad, we'll get 2-minute windows (he said hopefully!)

See y'all there.

Dave G
Co-Pilote, LDR

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..(and watch yer mirrors!)"
 

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Faster Mabricator
Joined
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3,611 Posts
RE: Start list

>Sat am, we go out in seeded draw order. The new Fortier turnaround >stage is 9 km, so you;d have to be more than 6 sec/km faster to have >catch-up issues there as well. After Fortier comes reseed before the >28 km biggies at Duhamel and Lac Gagnon. As someone said earlier, >that's where the rally really begins.

There you go then, the start order isn't too critical. And by having the reseed after a couple 'real' stages more characteristic of the long stages, the reseed will be more precise.

When its dry, Defi is a dustbowl.

Looks like some good competetion in most classes. Almost worth doing a Canadian version of the ProPicks.
 

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1973 WRC POR
Joined
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2,421 Posts
RE: Start list

>The competitor can ask the stewards to do it, too...

Adrian:

You are both correct and incorrect (I think).

Yes, a competitor can ask the Stewards to move him up the start order. A competitor can also ask the Stewards to increase the prize money for the event.

However, I see nothing in the current regulations which allows the Stewards to grant the request (start order, or prize money).

If there is, please let me know, because I want to be able to use it around the end of November.

The only regulation I see is "The organizers of a rally have the right, after approval by the Senior Steward, to place any first driver in a higher seed".

So the request has to go to the organizers, who make a decision, which is then approved by the Senior Steward. However, the rule is unclear about how high the driver can be moved. For example, after the seeded draw, a driver could be moved from Seed 2 into Seed 1. But how high can he be placed in Seed 1? After all of the drivers who were already in the Seed 1 draw, or anywhere?

However, if the organizer refuses the request and leaves the start order as is, I do not believe that the Stewards have the power to change the start order.

Hey, don't get me wrong. As a Pro Picks competitor, I know where all the drivers should be placed. However, as a Steward, I have an obligation to follow the rules. I cannot selectively decide which rules I will choose to follow, or which rules are good rules or bad rules.

Anyway, the entire start order process needs to be looked at in Canada.

I liked the system we used at Maine Forest Rally this year.

Doug Woods
 

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1973 WRC POR
Joined
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2,421 Posts
RE: Start list

>There you go then, the start order isn't too critical.

Dave:

Yup, you are correct with this year's stage layout. Last year the first stage on Saturday morning was very long and start order did matter.

But even on the shortish stage this year on Saturday morning, if it is dusty, Iorio could be affected.

Doug Woods
 

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Dirt surfer
Joined
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1,367 Posts
RE: Start list

If it's super dusty on the Sat am stages before reseed, there are two options for Iorio

1) 2-minute windows, courtesy of stewards

2) agreed change in running order, courtesy of concerned competitors ahead of him

Both are highly likely.

Dave G


"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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1973 WRC POR
Joined
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2,421 Posts
RE: Start list

>If it's super dusty on the Sat am stages before reseed, there
>are two options for Iorio
>
>1) 2-minute windows, courtesy of stewards
>
>2) agreed change in running order, courtesy of concerned
>competitors ahead of him
>
>Both are highly likely.

Dave:

In Canada, the Stewards have no authority to impose a two minute window. The organizers can only do this. The Stewards can approve it. Of course, the Stewards can also suggest it to the organizers in the first place. ;-)

This is another of the many issues surrounding start order regulations in Canada that need to be reviewed and reworded in the regulations.

Doug Woods
 

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Faster Mabricator
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3,611 Posts
RE: Competitive advantages thru start order @ Defi

Defi presents a wide array of challenges that start order can influence either competitive advantages or disadvantages.
First is the dust if it is dry. Its been a couple years since there has been a dry Defi so for those who haven't experiened one, dust is worse than perhaps any other I've been to, particularly on the 'Lake Gannon' stage. ACP crashed into a finish control worker's car after not seeing the flying finish board. Its that bad. You'd think with the large lakes nearby that the wind would help but obviously not. Perhaps its the road surface itself is so finely crushed.
On the other hand is the wet Defis. The past couple have huge water crossings and large puddles on apexes and such. Seems the later cars could have an advantage as water is displaced and splashed out from road surface by the front-runners.

There are several types of road surface. Reviewing past Defi results, often the car first on the road is not the eventual winner so you've got to wonder how marbley he road is and how much road sweeping the first car on the road does. With the dust issue, you'd think being first on road is a tremendous advantage but perhaps not. 'Lac Gannon' has lots of crests and most have some sort of curve assosicated with it. Because the supsension is un-weighted in these curves, traction is more important than a rally with less crest or just straight over each crest.
Then, the beginning of the 'Duhamel' stage is very very soft and ruts like crazy. After the first couple cars, the ruts a so deep and road very narrow that you pretty much have to drive in them. It may be faster for the later cars who are driving in the ruts and use them to hook up to get around curves and have a harder surface underneath for traction. Or not. Input anyone?
 

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Dirt surfer
Joined
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1,367 Posts
RE: Competitive advantages thru start order @ Defi

> Defi dust is worse than perhaps any other I've been
>to, particularly on the 'Lake Gannon' stage. ACP crashed into
>a finish control worker's car after not seeing the flying
>finish board. Its that bad.
>

Think you're referring to 2002, when dust was truly appalling. I remember John's codriver at the time coming back off the stage, eyes wide: "We can't see a thing...it's sooo scary!" If this is the case for 05, the organizers and Stewards have the responsibility to make a good safety call and open up 2-minute windows to minimize overtaking when visibility is so bad.

> 'Lac Gannon' has lots of crests and
>most have some sort of curve assosicated with it. Because the
>supsension is un-weighted in these curves, traction is more
>important than a rally with less crest or just straight over
>each crest.>

Last year, the Gagnon road surface was drying out, with a layer of dusty stuff over wetter gravel. As the cars slid or accelerated, they left dark tracks. There were loooong sections of Gagnon where many successive crests were punctuated by dark tracks followed by nothing for 20-60-100 feet after the crest, then the tracks would start again. (It was kind of like following fresh ski tracks in powder snow through a field of moguls.) You could see where cars had close calls with landing in the ditch or whatever, only by then it was too late to adjust your own flight path! Call it VERY exciting, and a big reason why recce at Defi is so important.

> Then, the beginning of the 'Duhamel' stage is very very soft
>and ruts like crazy. After the first couple cars, the ruts a
>so deep and road very narrow that you pretty much have to
>drive in them.>

The Duhamel ruts are an issue really only in the first km or so, after that the road firms up and its just good ole Quebec gravel. Ruts in soft ground...isn't that why rally cars have lots o ground clearance?


Dave G

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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Faster Mabricator
Joined
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3,611 Posts
RE: Competitive advantages thru start order @ Defi

>Think you're referring to 2002, when dust was truly appalling.
>I remember John's codriver at the time coming back off the
>stage, eyes wide: "We can't see a thing...it's sooo scary!"

Its every year there isn't a major rainfall there. 2002 was just the first year it was a National and got increased media.


>Call it VERY
>exciting, and a big reason why recce at Defi is so important.

I ran it when it was blind (tulip) in 2001 and the routebook had scarce instructions. We rolled as others too and some major offs. Glad recce was added.
 
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