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Discussion Starter #1
Since we are getting a new rule book one way or another how about everyone throw out some ideas, here are mine:

1. Safty Devices Bolt in cages should be legal again.
They have a very good record and back in 1983 my dad and I built a rally car from start to finish in 1 weekend with a SD cage, Victory seats, belts, Dodge Mopar Rally Struts, two hunks of UMDH and some wiring. The project in todays money would be less than $4000.

Think about that 1 weekend from idea to rally ready car.

2. Belts should be good for 5 years.

3. Any rally car that has passed tech and run a rally since say 1995 should be granfathered into running again for some number (5?) of events to get the owner back out on the stages and hooked on the sport again, or to provide a reason for a new owner to buy the car and run it.

4. I thihk the SCCA's Insurance limits where high and we could possibly get away with lower limits and less automatic pay outs.

5. We should adopt a lot of the FIA rule book but not car classes since we do not have the right cars.

6. Rules should protect owner's investments as much as possible.

Add your own ideas below.

Derek
 

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Sounds like another.. "I can't afford to rallye" proposal to me.
You're trying to save on safety and that's not a good idea.

Whiplash RallyeSport
 

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Are you saying that safety equipment that is good enough for FIA rallies is not good enough for us (safety devices rollcages)? Or maybe you are just addressing the general theme of his rules proposals?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I have no idea who you are Ray and clearly you have no idea who I am. I can afford to rally, sail and fly - three very expinsive hobbies and I can do them all at the same time with out making a dent in my savings rate. I have no problem spending money I do however have a problem wasting it.

I would like rules that require me to spend money to be directed to realy improving something... so how many Safty Device cages have failed anyways, how many belts have split???? Give me facts to back up new rules and I will not oppose them.

By no means were my thoughts to focuse on only safty equipment, I though all this is a good time for all ideas be it about car classes or restrictors to get out into the open before a new body just adopted SCCA's rules because it is easy to do so.

I hope that cleared up my goals. Thanks,

Derek
 

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>2. Belts should be good for 5 years.

FIA belts are good for 5 years. The expiration date is clearly displayed on the FIA label.

The SFI recertification period for 16.1 harnesses is two years. SCCA didn't just pull this number out of a hat. Are you proposing that a new rule set ignore the SFI time limits?

alan
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Alan, I am proposing points of discution I am not making a motion in the Robets Rules of Order since. I am no expert on why SFI belts expire in 2 years and FIA belts 5. I have FIA belts in my car and I know they are good till Feb 2009 so for me the point is moot anyway.

Do not fixate on what I have thrown up there, think about what you would change and add it to the list.

DKB
 

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You think John Lane would be alive with a SD bolt-in cage?

Or Doug Havir?

Or Scott Fuller?

Or Tim Paterson?

Or anyone that has had a violent rollover including direct impacts to tube junctions? No bolt-in is acceptable for rally, especially these days where people get there driving instruction on SpeedTV WRC shows.

Door bars held with little 20mm steel strap .120 thick and two english cheeze steel grade .5 bolts?


We should be looking at ways to make rally more attractive to potencial insureance providers. Cutting safety is not the correct thing to do, at all, much less right now.

___________________________________________________________________


My ideas, killem if you wish.


1. Use FIA timing, atleast for service, the 20 min service will require a little more the driver's brains to be used. "Save the car, we only have a 20min service" this will also take speeds down possibley. Reckless drivers and shitty prep will get you nowhere.

2. Change class structure to include only 4 classes

AWD open, like SCCA open w 34mm, and 30mm or something on large dis engines like 2.5 STI.

AWD stock(a group of cars with FIA GN prep, PGT revamped to GN levels, or do Proto N covering all Turbo AWD cars to a FIA type Group N modifications)A legit GN car and bastard GN/PGT can use the same parts?

2WD open, Like Group F, but allowing turbo cars with wieght

2WD stock, like SCCA Production




pete
 

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- Do YOU think FIA and all manufacturers would approve bolt-on cages if they were not 100% safe?
- Like new 2005 Mitsu EVO RS. The one with an aluminium roof, aluminium door bars and BOLT-ON cage. Weld-on is homologated too, ofcourse.
- 2-year belt rule should only be for American made, Korean war surplus belt material with straight jacket latches...
 

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>1. Safety Devices bolt-in cages should be legal again.

I actually agree with this, as long as the rule specifies engineering criteria that the cage must meet and the cage manufacturer supplies certified engineering data. Safety Devices, yes. Autopower, no.

>5. We should adopt a lot of the FIA rule book but not car
>classes since we do not have the right cars.

First, it is not one rule book; it is a set of rules. It is the International Sporting Code, the General Prescriptions and Appendix J Articles 251-254.

Have you completely read through the FIA rule set? Some parts of the FIA rules are good, but others are a pain.

Example 1. 20 minute service
In the FIA rules, service is 20 min services during the day and 45 min at the end of the day. If you ran at Wild West this year and had any kind of problem, you know that 20 min service is not fun.

Example 2. Stupid little details
In the FIA rules, competitor bulletins must be printed on yellow paper and the supps and road book must be printed in A5 size.

Example 3. Harness std does not appear on the harness label
In the FIA rules, harnesses must meet FIA std 8853/98 or 8854/98. The only copies of those stds that I found on the FIA web site were written in French. The std that a harness meets is not on the FIA harness label; the homologation number is. So, you have to look up the homologation number on the current "approved" list, then find out what std it meets. However, 8853/98 seems to be a 4-point harness std (all of the 8853/98 harnesses that I saw on the approved list were 4-point belts). Or, you just look at the expiration date and ignore whether the harness meets the correct std.

I believe that the FIA rule set should be used as a basis for a new rule set, but it needs to be adapted for rallying in the US.

I am just not sure if the parts of the rulebook that people seem to be most bothered with can just be lifted from the FIA rules.

alan
 

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>- 2-year belt rule should only be for American made, Korean
>war surplus belt material with straight jacket latches...

Like I said, if SFI says that a 16.1 harness needs to be recertified every two years, how can any rally rule-making organization responsibly contradict that?

alan
 

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>- Do YOU think FIA and all manufacturers would approve
>bolt-on cages if they were not 100% safe?

Yeah but we are in the USA, with the lawyers.



>- Like new 2005 Mitsu EVO RS. The one with an aluminium
>roof, aluminium door bars and BOLT-ON cage. Weld-on is
>homologated too, ofcourse.
>- 2-year belt rule should only be for American made, Korean
>war surplus belt material with straight jacket latches...


You can buy those from racer wholesale.
 

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>Alan, I am proposing points of discution I am not making a
>motion in the Robets Rules of Order since. I am no expert on
>why SFI belts expire in 2 years and FIA belts 5. I have FIA
>belts in my car and I know they are good till Feb 2009 so
>for me the point is moot anyway.
>
>Do not fixate on what I have thrown up there, think about
>what you would change and add it to the list.

I have been looking at the harness thing for a couple of weeks (ask Pete VB; I was at his shop taking photos of harness labels). That is why I asked specifically about your harness proposal. Don't take it as an attack.

I have heard a lot of grousing about the 2-year SFI harness rule and, after I did the research, was very surprised to see that the number came from SFI itself.

alan
 

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RE: New rules for new rule book-Patience needed

How about we wait? I'm sure the existing rule book will be used initially as there's alot of other more important things to condsider in a short period of time. And if the organization is at all concerned about it's membership, we'll be asked in due time for our input. You guys need to be patient.
Edited for spelling, because IMHO, it is important.
 

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>
>I have heard a lot of grousing about the 2-year SFI harness
>rule and, after I did the research, was very surprised to
>see that the number came from SFI itself.

Actually, ANY sanctioning body that is part of the SFI M U S T have ALL BELTS they allow to use be 2 yr compliant.

In other words, according to the SFI itself(of which SCCA is a member) if they allow FIA belts, they SHOULD be forcing a 2yr replacement of both SFI AND FIA belts, or they are not in compliance with the SFI.

I hadnt mentioned this before, because I didnt want to get the SCCA's attention & potentially cause everyone with FIA belts to be forced to replace them as often, because I dont belive the SFI rule is fair, as it is based on worst case scenario of belt exposure & wear/use patterns. However, if Rally America is taking over, I believe they (rally AMerica) are not part of SFI, so it is a non-issue at this point. IF it becomes an issue for Rally AMerica, I will make sure DCH knows this, so as to not cause issues.

:)



JC
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Discussion Starter #15
And the wing rule should go too. I have driven over pelnty of other parts of rally cars with out any problems I can drive over wings too.

And yes I ment the FIA book as a starting point with some changes in some areas. Some of it sucks but it is a nice foundation.
 

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>You think John Lane would be alive with a SD bolt-in cage?

He has a nice JVAB Imports FIA spec cage bought years ago with the
1.75" main hoop because somebody thought ahead.
Nice cage, and nice installation job by Dave Clark.

>
>Or Doug Havir?
>
>Or Scott Fuller?
>
>Or Tim Paterson?
>
>Or anyone that has had a violent rollover including direct
>impacts to tube junctions? No bolt-in is acceptable for
>rally, especially these days where people get there driving
>instruction on SpeedTV WRC shows.

Then what were you doing installing one in Glenn's Cortina?

How many Bolt in safety devices cages failed at junctions when they were the norm and speeds nearly the same?
>
>Door bars held with little 20mm steel strap .120 thick and
>two english cheeze steel grade .5 bolts?
>
>
>We should be looking at ways to make rally more attractive
>to potencial insureance providers. Cutting safety is not the
>correct thing to do, at all, much less right now.
>
>___________________________________________________________________




John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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>Since we are getting a new rule book one way or another how
>about everyone throw out some ideas, here are mine:
>
>1. Safty Devices Bolt in cages should be legal again.
>They have a very good record and back in 1983 my dad and I
>built a rally car from start to finish in 1 weekend with a
>SD cage, Victory seats, belts, Dodge Mopar Rally Struts, two
>hunks of UMDH and some wiring. The project in todays money
>would be less than $4000.
>
>Think about that 1 weekend from idea to rally ready car.
>
>2. Belts should be good for 5 years.
>
>3. Any rally car that has passed tech and run a rally since
>say 1995 should be granfathered into running again for some
>number (5?) of events to get the owner back out on the
>stages and hooked on the sport again, or to provide a reason
>for a new owner to buy the car and run it.
>
>4. I thihk the SCCA's Insurance limits where high and we
>could possibly get away with lower limits and less automatic
>pay outs.
>
>5. We should adopt a lot of the FIA rule book but not car
>classes since we do not have the right cars.
>
>6. Rules should protect owner's investments as much as
>possible.
>
>Add your own ideas below.
>
>Derek

I have to apologize.
Let me get a little more specific.

1. Bolt-In cages are not safe for our purpose. Have you seen one in an WRC car? I have a FIA weld-in from SD in my car.

2. FIA is thinking of renewing their rules on belts to two years.

3. All cars of any age should be allowed as long as they pass a thorough inspection. I didn't like that SCCA rule in the first place.

4. FIA rules are fine. Sometimes a little too complex.

5. FIA has classes in the classes. Could be tweaked for the US.

6. Rules should be a perfect, or as much as, balance between all involved.

I hope this puts my initial post in a better light.
And as for who I am Derek?
I've been active in "Rallying" since 1977 in Europe and here, and not a school boy anymore.
Don't care how much money you make or have and hope you use it wisely.

Whiplash RallyeSport
 

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> Then what were you doing installing one in Glenn's Cortina?

I paid him to install it...

And it is an FIA SD cage with a serial number, it is also a thicker wall spec than they usually make. (though same tubing dia, just thicker wall --- I'd have to check the papers, I can't remember the figures)

The logbook predates the SCCA "weld in your bolt in cage" rule, so it is grandfathered.

Glenn

PS Pete is right, I'm not crazy about the door bars

PPS if it was one of them super fast AWD cars I think I'd prefer a weld in cage, thanks.
 
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