Special Stage Forums banner
1 - 20 of 57 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
946 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why don't we require them to go Visit Tim O'Neil?

He could certainly tell you if a Driver is going to have immediate problems.

If you can't afford to go see him for a day or two, then you probably won't rally for very long anyway. Probably rally until first big crash then not able to afford to fix car.
 

·
Couch rallyist!
Joined
·
344 Posts
At today's prices I'd seriously object to that, but if everyone had to go I'm sure he could get the costs down and still make some profits. Using student's own cars would bring the cost down a little too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
Don't you have to go to a racing school to get a road racing licence? If so, why should rally be any different?
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
Have YOU been drinking?

Tim O'neil is not some sort of God.

Granted that some sort of early intervention is _strongly advisible_ mandating that one private company should be the only Portal of Entry into this sport is bafflingly bizarre.

Shirley, you jest.


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
Because there will always be OTHER PEOPLE on the track _in addition_ to the usual immovable objects.
It is fundementally different.


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
I've been to Skip Barber, which I believe qualifies you for an SCCA road racing licence (with addt'l track time), and as best I recall, the fact that other cars were on the track at the same time was never the subject of the course material. Line, physics, heel-toe, threshold braking...but nothing specifically to do with other cars being on the track.

I understand that rally is not road racing, but I don't understand why cars being on the track with you require that you go to a school.

Neither road race nor rally school can teach you good judgement.



>
>Because there will always be OTHER PEOPLE on the track _in
>addition_ to the usual immovable objects.
>It is fundementally different.
>
>
>John Vanlandingham
>Seattle, WA. 98168
>
>Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
>Vive Le Groupe F!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
935 Posts
>Shirley, you jest.

I'm not kidding, and stop calling me Shirley. Oh wait, wrong post....


In truth, I havn't read any of these crazy american insurance threads since they're getting so long it hurts my brain, so I may not understand the whole issue. But requiring people to attend a school seems a bit far-fetched to me. I'd rather see new people get set up with a mentor as they go through the process of getting started, rather than just mandating they go to O'neil. Same guy who scrutineers your cage can tell you the sort of stuff to pack for service over a beer, that sort of thing. People will always be able to buy their way into an ealy grave, so I doubt you'll have much luck legislating against it, better to try something more familiar.
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
>I've been to Skip Barber, which I believe qualifies you for
>an SCCA road racing licence (with addt'l track time), and as
>best I recall, the fact that other cars were on the track at
>the same time was never the subject of the course material.
>Line, physics, heel-toe, threshold braking...but nothing
>specifically to do with other cars being on the track.
>
>I understand that rally is not road racing, but I don't
>understand why cars being on the track with you require that
>you go to a school.

Because if you're a goon on a track, you have a much higher chance of smashing into others. Read all the shenanigans in Fast track "Matters of Moment", those guys seem to constantly ram each other in their heroic fights for 3rd in Z production, and then get into fights and protests and appeals.

If you are a goon in the woods, first you are likely not going to be particularly fast (with some reservations about those who buy expensive turbo awd cars as their first car) and the likelyhood is you'll just hit a poor innocent tree, rather than some shiney car owned by some "hero" who believes he can do no wrong.


>
>Neither road race nor rally school can teach you good
>judgement.

And that is the major problem, not which car or how much superficial 'schooling' one gets.
Judgement is a personality characteristic brought to the passtime of Motorsports along with the gear-bag.

Examining that issue, pre-exsisting attitudes, is the most critical I believe.

In drunk driving accidents, it is not the motor control deterioration which results in the accidents, but the attitudinal change as a result of the loosening of internal restraints from the alchohol.
We need to know what guys are like when the normal restraints of society are removed.
Military Pilot accident records that I have for both the US Navy and the Swedish Air Force shpow that a mere 15% of pilots involved in over 80% of all accidents.
Accident records for amature civilian pilots are less relevant, they nearly never get a second chance.

So how to we work out the guys who are repeat offenders and modify BEHAVIOUR?
That should be the highest priority.

>
>
>
>>
>>Because there will always be OTHER PEOPLE on the track _in
>>addition_ to the usual immovable objects.
>>It is fundementally different.
>>
>>
>>John Vanlandingham
>>Seattle, WA. 98168
>>
>>Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
>>Vive Le Groupe F!





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,812 Posts
>Why don't we require them to go Visit Tim O'Neil?

As John Kerry says, "I have a plan." The plan is: to have someone else pay for everything.

Require them to go to Yurup for 3 years for training.
I'll betcha Doug Havir would pay your bill if you ask nicely :)
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
RE: schools

This all started when it was SCCA and the SCCA had a driver school program set up for road racing but not for rally. I always thought, with rally being a bit more difficult than road racing, that the SCCA should/could use the same program for rally. That wasn't a stretch for my brain.

The road racing program makes you get hours of school time and a signoff then a number of successful events for your rookie level. More successful events to attain regional level then another set of successful events to get to the national level. To continue from there you need to finish in the top three of a pro series to get FIA C then B and a top series to get a Super for F1.

SCCA road racing schools were run by the National drivers and no one got paid but the doctor. Entry resembled a regional race weekend but had many hours of track time and close supervision by the driver/instructors, students, corner workers and stewards.

Rally Right had the idea but with the loss of the venue and the incidents, a good first step was lost.

rz
 

·
5 right opens
Joined
·
859 Posts

>In truth, I havn't read any of these crazy american
>insurance threads since they're getting so long it hurts my
>brain, so I may not understand the whole issue. But
>requiring people to attend a school seems a bit far-fetched
>to me.


Maybe you should :)

You'll see that in every motorsport event (BUT RALLY) in the US, the Sanctioning body requires some sort of certification for Drivers in order to satisfy their Insurance and Sanctioning Liabilities.

In these other events where Liability Suits comes to bear, they are laregly based on the failing of physical equipment or management of a facility or some failure to perform.

While in Rally, they largely boil down to the question of whether or not the Driver should have been behind the wheel in the first place.

It has been argued, in and out of courst, that a one hour class on how to read a route book is NOT sufficient training, let alone certifying that a Driver can even CONTROL a Rally car on a Rally course.

Remember, we are dealing with LIABILITY here, not Causality.

Requiring "A Course" in Rally & Car Control (that would apply to their Coefficient Requirements) would go a long way in the eyes of the Insurers in limiting our Liability as well as make our sport safer for Competitors, Workers and Spectators.

Your other option is to remove all the elements (risk) of RACING and reduce Rally in the US to Rally Cross & TSD Rallies.

Which is what the SCCA did.

Scott - So, what you wanna do? - Kovalik
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
397 Posts
Much as we all hate to think of it we will likely be forced into requiring some manner of schooling beyond the 'Novice driver's meetings' I attended years ago when I was getting started in rally. It will likely be an insurance requirement.
I'm fond of a more involved novice driver's meeting the night before certain events to go over procedures, driving techniques and what to do when you roll it cuz you were a dolt and continued without brakes.
Oh....I did that in my first event in the Volvo. Oops.

Lots of noise about how to slow the newbies down.........Easy.
Shorter straights. Haybales that add two minutes for each of them you hit will do nicely. Make the newbies drive stock engined 2.1 liter naturally aspirated Volvos or 2tc Corollas for a season and make some finishes in that slow thing. Two wheel drive and no power makes you drive the car. They will be affordable to put together and have a resale market to other newbies.

Thoughts?

John Lane
Viva Le Pro Le Ralliat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
935 Posts
>Maybe you should :)

Ok, now I have read most of them. Can I continue? :+

>You'll see that in every motorsport event (BUT RALLY) in the
>US, the Sanctioning body requires some sort of certification
>for Drivers in order to satisfy their Insurance and
>Sanctioning Liabilities.
>While in Rally, they largely boil down to the question of
>whether or not the Driver should have been behind the wheel
>in the first place.
>It has been argued, in and out of courst, that a one hour
>class on how to read a route book is NOT sufficient
>training, let alone certifying that a Driver can even
>CONTROL a Rally car on a Rally course.

The whole absurdity of liability aside, perhaps I could re-state my idea. A for-profit, or remotely expensive course (no matter what small portion of a full season it may equate to) is likely to be unsuccessful, especially when legislated as mandatory. A better idea, in my opinion, would be to follow in some road-racing tradions (shudder) and have some sort of clinic, run by experienced volunteers. Pehaps you could defray costs and encourage people to attend all in one step; make a higher entry fee for those who havn't attended a course, or taught one if applicable.

You know, it's the same issue with young driver insurance. When the majority of 17 year old males get the ability to drive, no matter how responsible, they end up doing something they shouldn't. Whether they get caught or not, I would venture 90% or more end up commiting serious offences, just to see what happens. How does the industry curtail it? Massive rates. There are discounts for good grades, good records, taking courses, etc, but after all those, the rates are still extremely high. I really don't know how much a course is going to help the overall insurance rate paid per rally. Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
240 Posts
John, by your standards, none of the top American or Canadian drivers ever would have gotten a license let alone been allowed to continue. In fact they would have been right on the top of your list for disqualification. Lets see pre existing behavior, enjoys driving high powered cars really fast over unknown roads inches from trees. Yup sounds like a real choir boy sport to me. I think the best you can do is give them good information and training so they avoid the real dumb mistakes and some practice so they aren?t a complete accident waiting to happen. I think the mentor thing is the best combined with some real simple curriculum and required practice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
366 Posts
>
>You'll see that in every motorsport event (BUT RALLY) in the
>US, the Sanctioning body requires some sort of certification
>for Drivers in order to satisfy their Insurance and
>Sanctioning Liabilities.
>
That is not true-there are plenty of motorsports in the US that do not require certification of any kind or any above a state issued drivers license, and that includes on a race track with other drivers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,998 Posts
RE: schools

>
>SCCA road racing schools were run by the National drivers
>and no one got paid but the doctor. Entry resembled a
>regional race weekend but had many hours of track time and
>close supervision by the driver/instructors, students,
>corner workers and stewards.
>
>Rally Right had the idea but with the loss of the venue and
>the incidents, a good first step was lost.
>
The difference is VENUES. Road racing has fixed venues that are available any time you can pony up the price. No matter what you do, they'll be there next season. Rallies, on the other hand, typically reqire long, tedious negotiations to acquire a venue, then careful use to retain it...and many can only be used ONCE A YEAR. Given those restrictions - and typically low turnouts for beginning school events - most organizers ain't interested.

Schools are a good idea...may even become necessary...but we have to remember that SOMEBODY needs to put them on. And they're not much less labor-intensive than a competition event.

Bruce
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
366 Posts
I've can think of one type of driving school that could be of benefit to beginners, that would would be skid control.

But I have to say I still believe this whole subject is nothing more then a witch hunt. What happens when some jumps through all the hoops to get licensed & still has a nasty accident? Will everyone feel better and say, "well we tried"! The safety record isn't showing these guys to be an issue.

This is caused by a threat of insurance companies not insuring the sport? What has NASA run up against with their events and this issue? Ray?
 

·
5 right opens
Joined
·
859 Posts
That is not true-there are plenty of motorsports in the
>US that do not require certification of any kind or any
>above a state issued drivers license, and that includes on a
>race track with other drivers!


SCCA or other nationally synidcated & sanctioned Competition Motorsports? Events that get TV and Magazine Coverage as a Recognized Racing Event?

I'm not talking about Lawnmower racing here or Mod Bogs or Tuff Trucks.

I'm talking about Racing on the same level as the SCCA Pro/Club Rally.

SCCA Trans Am racing.

Formula Atlantic

CART or IRL

IMSA/ALMS

Speed World Challenge

... are racing series on par with Pro/Club Rally events.

Do any of them allow a driver to show up and drive with no certification?

I think not. And counting type of motorsports that don't compete on a comparable level really isn't worth arguing about.

Scott -
 
1 - 20 of 57 Posts
Top