[randyzimmer]

This was supposed to be added to the
"Rim Town Hall Notes Posted" thread... sorry
------------------
Looks like the answer to all the questions was "write a letter", a lot of good it did to stay away from work an extra day and participate in a face-to-face meeting. I feel good in a way that I'm not the only one who never gets a straight answer to anything I ask, like, "why am I being tossed out of this rally?
and "who else has ever been tossed out of a rally" and "where's Dennis Dean?"
RZ

________
volcano vaporizer

 

[John Vanlandingham]

Yeah, just read thru the notes posted by john dillon, makes you wonder is the SCCA PRB couldn't save a bunch of money by making a card board cut-out photo of the fearless hardworking LEADER all dressed in Hyndi-buru-ishi jackets and baseball hats and key chains with a little voice chip duct taped to it which would respond to any voices nearby with "Write a letter to PRB"....

Folded carefully it could be sent via USPS or Fed-ex even for pretty cheap, and if the organisers of the town meeting would unfold it and then pack it away again carefull it could last a long time, and save a lot of money, too.

But most importantly, it would allow unbroken and relentless concentration on the toil of bringing the big fat SERIES TITLE SPONSOR to fruition, a task so graet and so daunting that three plus years have been spent on it. tough negotiations are probably going on nearly 24 hours a day! Where is FEDERAL ARBITRATION when you really need it???














John Vanlandingham

 

[Jon Bogert]

This is an important tool for conflict avoidance.

It's very important that rule changes be made in closed meetings where the individual members won't be subjected to abuse as they meekly raise their hands in acquiesence to the latest marketing-driven initiative.

Perhaps PRB meetings should be held in an auditorium in front of an audience of all Pro (and Club) Rally license holders. The audience would be issued a basket of ripe tomatoes at the door. I think this would be a useful exercise for those PRB members who delude themselves into thinking that their decisions are good for the sport overall, even if they are bad for an acceptably small minority of competitors.

 

[John Vanlandingham]

RE: This is an important tool for conflict avoidance.

Hey Jon, would they have to stay seated?

But seriously, shouldn't the minutes of all Manufacturer council meeting be transcribed, THAT's where the disgusting sheeeeet is probably taking place, I blush to think of what scenes of submission go on there, but we'll never know will we?

Remember that French article Derek 'Uncorked' Bottles and I posted?

Every manufacturer listed contact person name and phone number. They want you to contact them, they WANT YOU IN THEIR PRODUCT.

No deadwood middle man with hand stuck out! in between.



Deadly aim in snow ball fights,














John Vanlandingham

 

[saywhat]

what a waste

I set through some of that meeting and I want to say Kurt did an excellent job, he managed to take no responsibility and blame everything on the BOD or PRB, refered all questions to be submitted through "OFFICIAL CHANNELS". All this from the "Director in charge of rally"!!!
Very interesting to note that many members of PRB and SCCA rally office read this forum but do not react because it is "NOT AN OFFICIAL CHANNEL", yet say they get very little in letters and member input. To think that we are the whinners when its right there in front of them.
It would be a good idea if "Specialstage" had a link to the PRB and the BOD e-mail addresses so we as a rally community could easily send off our opinions and questions thru "OFFICIAL" channels. After all when we cry for the leaders head we need to know it is on "OFFICIAL" record. :9 :*

 

[rally to cave]

I don't think it was a waste...

I attended the Town Hall meeting and I don't think it was a waste. It was a good opportunity to offer suggestions and get some feedback from Kurt and other members.

Special stage was discussed at the meeting. Everyone thought it was a great forum to discuss issues. However, for your voice to be heard it needs to be directed to the BOD in a letter, either paper or e-mail. I agree, if you feel stongly about an issue, take the time discuss it on special stage, then you should take the time to send your concern to the SCCA BOD. I think everyone in attendence shared the same view.

As John Dillion said, if you think a rule needs changing, get the suggestion to the SCCA by May 20.

Paul

 

[Jon Bogert]

That'a a great idea!

How about it SpecialStage webmasters: can you add some code that automatically e-mails each SS thread to each member of the PRB? If they refuse to acknowledge SS as the venue where all ProRally discussion takes place, why not just convert it to a form they will accept?

 

[Bill Barfoot]

already there..

right there at the top of every post is e-mail this to a friend. Chick on that and it sends a link. Don't know if that is still considdered an official method, as all you are sending is a link. I would cut and paste what was important if i was to send something important...

 

[jeff burmeister]

RE: That'a a great idea!

>How about it SpecialStage webmasters: can you add some code
>that automatically e-mails each SS thread to each member of
>the PRB? If they refuse to acknowledge SS as the venue where
>all ProRally discussion takes place, why not just convert it
>to a form they will accept?

Laugh, Never!!! Here is why...

Use your own voice!!
Stand up for what _you_ think is right or wrong.

If you think that what some people are complaining about here is right, then let the PRB know. If you think that they are wrong, let the PRB know. But use your own voice.

But don't allow someone like the webmasters of this site to be the ones to decide what is or is not a critical issue for you.

You don't know what my political views on the SCCA series are, so why would you want someone like Jim or Myself to be the ones to decide for you.

Stand up for yourself, and send in your own thoughts and opinions. You, the members of the SCCA, CARS, FIA, CAFS, BARSC, AJRS, or any other club has a right to speak up, so do it... Don't let someone like myself do it for you, otherwise you are just electing a dictator.

Jeff Burmeister
SpecialStage.com

PS, Some rally discussions may take place here, but we are not, and will not be the official site for discussions for the SCCA. Yes, the PRB might read this site, but that doesn't mean anything. Think of it this way. Your local Senator or House Representative might read the Editorials in your local newspaper, but that doesn't mean that they acknowledge it as the Communities Will. They have Town Hall meetings, take phone calls, and take letters just like the members of the PRB. I suggest that you write them as well...

 

[SoPacRallySteward]

RE: Comments regarding the PRB

Hey, folks, lets remember that the PRB is comprised of volunteers too, just like your organizers and workers. They put in a fair amount of time trying to make our sport better.

Do I sometimes have issues? Of course. Do I sometimes disagree with their decision? You bet. Am I going to blast them for stepping up to the plate and trying to make a positive difference? Not a chance. These guys are my pals, my competition, my team mates. These are the people I play with around the trees, along the ridges, in the mud and snow and heat and cold.

I'm not afraid to tell them what I think needs to be fixed (and what I think is good), but I'm not going to attack my friends just because they're on a board that has to make disagreeable decisions from time to time.

Write to the PRB, but don't abuse them unless you plan to serve on that board yourself.

---------------------------------------
John Dillon John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com

 

[Topi]

RE: Comments regarding the PRB

- I agree with John, volunteers do what they can and should not be a target
- I also agree with "The Other" John - Kurt Spitzer is PAID official, working for members (or should be...). He also goes around making "representations" how "great" US ProRally is doing. The latest trip was to the AUTOSPORT Show, NIC Birmingham, GB. The fact that SCCA ProRally dept LOST $ 200 000+ last year (FastTrack info) didn't dim his glorious praise for the "HY-MI-SU Rally Series of 'Merica".

 

[Jon Bogert]

The key point IS the community here.

It's not just a question of an individual sending an individual letter to the PRB. Asking for input only from individuals makes it MUCH easier to prevent or conveniently ignore groundswells of opinion. If 50 individuals feel the same way but never talk to each other, their opinions get lost. If those 50 band together, march, make signs, protest, etc. they cannot be ignored.

Like it or not, SpecialStage is a great sounding board for competitor opinion and the logical place for concepts to be debated and refined. I don't see why that's something to laugh at.

So, after a bunch of people weigh in on an issue, we have to individually send the PRB our personal notes? Why not draft it in longhand and have a courier ride through the night on horseback from house to house gathering signatures?

Every thread on SpecialStage is a petition from the PRB's constituents. But they don't want to read it and you don't want to send it. :-(

 

[daphne]

RE: Comments regarding the PRB

Topi, you have it all wrong. And since I've been the SpecialStage whipping gal today, I guess I'll go out on a limb and try to address some of this.

I don't know why you are complaining about the rally department (PRD) and Kurt. The PRD is a marketing-based group. Their goal is to package rally into a nice profitable package for the SCCA. So financial profitability is the ultimate framework for the sport. After all, if we were member-centric, why would we exclude current members from competition? Why would we not focus proactively on the needs of the membership?

I do disagree with the basic operation of the PRB and PRD right now. Let me explain. Right now we have to write letters to the PRB to voice our concerns. The PRB then pushes decisions down to the membership. As a computer geek, I'm going to call this a PUSH system.

Now, imaging a PULL system. One where the PRB polls the membership on their needs and helps create rules and governing principles that are tailored more to the desires of the membership. This is what I would expect from a club.

If rally is going to be run like big business, then we will only see the PUSH system in use because once you open the flood gates to a PULL system, you no longer have ultimate control over the principles and destiny of the sport. And to do that, you need an autocrat. And you don't hear too many people talking about a "beloved" autocrat...but I digress.

The PRB members I've interacted with are decent folk. I have nothing against them. And I like Kurt and the rest of the PRD. It's not personal. But I don't like the direction our club is going. And, unfortunately, the divergence is deeper than a couple of rules.

I'm at a loss as how to affect change. I'm open to suggestions.

 

[rally to cave]

RE: The key point IS the community here.

>It's not just a question of an individual sending an
>individual letter to the PRB. Asking for input only from
>individuals makes it MUCH easier to prevent or conveniently
>ignore groundswells of opinion. If 50 individuals feel the
>same way but never talk to each other, their opinions get
>lost. If those 50 band together, march, make signs, protest,
>etc. they cannot be ignored.

Yet if those 50 individals write to the PRB, then they have 50 slips of paper saying a change is needed. (Or it can be one letter, with 50 people attaching their name). The PRB now knows this is an important issue. That makes an impact!

To respond to the subject title, only part of the rally community is here. There are others that are not here.

Remember, the PRB volunteers their time. Having to monitor a forum, then interpret who supports what position, or if their opinion changes, is time consuming. A short letter (mail or e-mail) addressed to the PRB, that is to the point, makes an impact and is easy to document and record.

Paul

 

[jeff burmeister]

RE: The key point IS the community here.

John

The reality is the PRB most likely reads just about everything that happens here. Lets be honest, these people are as passionate (if not more) about rally then you and I are. And like us both, they are always looking for their daily rally fix.

But this site is a double-edged sword for them. They can sit back and read everything, but because of what they write could be mistakenly taken by you and I as "the word of the PRB membership." So they have taken the stance that it is best not post here unless it is non-SCCA related.

Just think about how hard it has to be for these people who live and breath Rally to be unable to post here because they are leaders in our community. Do I agree with this policy? Doesn't matter, but I understand _why_ they need to do it.

Look at the conversation that we are having, how many misunderstandings, or misinterruptions could come from it. The PRB has to agree on a stance as a group for any given topic before they can present as a group to the community. Is this a quick process? No Will it ever be? Perhaps, but these people are volunteers with real lives and real jobs. They already give far more to the sport then they will ever get in return.

But for now these people have to stay the line and only release Official Bulletins via the Official Communication Channels. But change is a great thing... And this should be a group of individuals that shouldn't be afraid of it.

I wonder how many PRB members are shaking with desire to post right now?

Jeffrey Burmeister
SpecialStage.com

 

[saywhat]

RE: That'a a great idea!

>>How about it SpecialStage webmasters: can you add some code
>>that automatically e-mails each SS thread to each member of
>>the PRB? If they refuse to acknowledge SS as the venue where
>>all ProRally discussion takes place, why not just convert it
>>to a form they will accept?
>
>Laugh, Never!!! Here is why...
>
>Use your own voice!!
>Stand up for what _you_ think is right or wrong.
>
>If you think that what some people are complaining about
>here is right, then let the PRB know. If you think that they
>are wrong, let the PRB know. But use your own voice.

>Stand up for yourself, and send in your own thoughts and
>opinions. You, the members of the SCCA, CARS, FIA, CAFS,
>BARSC, AJRS, or any other club has a right to speak up, so
>do it... Don't let someone like myself do it for you,
>otherwise you are just electing a dictator.
>
>Jeff Burmeister
>SpecialStage.com
>
>PS, Some rally discussions may take place here, but we are
>not, and will not be the official site for discussions for
>the SCCA. Yes, the PRB might read this site, but that
>doesn't mean anything. Think of it this way. Your local
>Senator or House Representative might read the Editorials in
>your local newspaper, but that doesn't mean that they
>acknowledge it as the Communities Will. They have Town Hall
>meetings, take phone calls, and take letters just like the
>members of the PRB. I suggest that you write them as well...

Hi Jeff: The idea is to have a link to easily be able to send to PRB PRD BOD, not to send a thread. If the E-mail addresses are easy to get at members may contribute more. Why not have access to them on the side bar? This is a legit question, if we the the rally community are going to take a beating for our complaints couldn't this forum help with making it easier to pass on our concerns to those in charge?

 

[saywhat]

Stage notes??

I had to laugh when this comment was made at Rim regarding stage notes.

Kurt: "It's about cheapest insurance you can buy. Still have a bunch of good looking cars at the end of Rim."

John: "Since fewer cars are crashing with stage notes, can we expect an insurance cut?"

I don't recall Rim being a crash out event, STPR may prove this statement to be true but not Rim. Rim is a break out event, that has nothing to do with stage notes, it has to do with prep and car age and how hard the car is driven. In fact didn't the Prodrive cars both roll? The finishing number has more to do with people buying new cars and running them, give the cars a year or two and they will be on the DNF list at Rim unless the maintenance is done. One more thing, the roads at Rim were the smoothest I recall, and that too would contribute to a high finishing rate.

 

[Rich Smith]

No Organization can serve Two Masters

>The PRD is a marketing-based group. Their goal is to package rally into a nice profitable package for the SCCA. So financial profitability is the ultimate framework for the sport. After all, if we were member-centric, why would we exclude current members from competition? Why would we not focus proactively on the needs of the membership?>

Daphne,

I agree with your assessment. SCCA is a "65,000 member non-profit organization". I think everyone agrees that Performance Rally should be financially self-sufficient and that it should never be a financial burden to the larger "CLUB". However, a financially self-sufficient club is NOT the same thing as a profitable business enterprise. They are inherently different with enormously different operating implications.

To the extent SCCA's PRD & PRB operate as a financially self-sufficient branch of a non-profit club, they will be most responsive to the needs and aspirations of the General Membership.

To the extent PRD Operations are conducted as a business enterprise with profitability and growth as the primary goal and measure of success, it will be most responsive to the special needs of it's primary financial contributors. (real or perceived)

No organization can serve two masters. SCCA should serve the General Membership.

Rich Smith

 

[rallytaff]

RE: Stage notes??

Pete Morris (building "Son of CoROLLa)Excuse me! This year's Rim was the smoothest you've ever driven! As an Organizer, I have to voice my opinion, but not against the Organizers of Rim. They have the roads that they can use, but my problem was that after 2 runs over Stages 13 and 14, they were the roughest that I have ever driven on. BUT, they were that way because of the large number of cars that had previously traversed them. We were actually smoothing the way for the cars behind us with our sump guard because the ruts were so DEEP! I know that car prep is of paramount importance for Rim, but for someone running this rally as a Seed 7????,we finished with no problems, thankfully.

 

[randyzimmer]

Back to the point of Town Meetings

Back to the point of Town Meetings...
This started more as a response to holding the Town Meeting and reading in the transcript that every point was diverted to someone not in attendance.
I'd expect a Town Meeting to be a brainstorming session of concerened participants that work together as a group to bring their ideas forward for consideration, debate and refinement.
To tell everyone bringing up a point to write in to the PRB is to ask individuals to give fragmented and conflicting views with no common direction - a direction that could be focused by discussion at the Town Meeting.
(That's what happens at the Run-off's class meetings)
The SCCA's road racing department has many processes that work and Rally could learn from them. My "problem" at Rim would have been handled VERY differently at even a lowly Regional event and the rules in the book would have been followed, not ignored by both the Series Manager and the Series Chief Steward and the proceedures would have been there for a decent appeal process and a finding of fact.
But I'm also getting off the point.
The point I want to make here is that there are people in the SCCA that know how to run things and Rally is learning for themselves and wasting time with mis-steps.
rz

________
VF1000F